[Durham INC] [pac3] Fwd: What is up with Durham drivers?
Barry Ragin
bragin at nc.rr.com
Mon Mar 14 23:35:13 EDT 2011
Reyn - you're responding to the particular words "Durham drivers" in the
subject line.
Nobody is talking about only people who live in Durham. We're talking
about people who drive in Durham. If you want to limit that to people
who live here, fine, but it's a distinction without any significance.
(And to be honest, the morons on my little 200 yard long cul-de-sac who
think that 45 in a 25 is acceptable are most certainly Durham residents.)
As i asked before, if most of those folks don't live here, then why is
it so difficult to enforce our traffic laws with them? They're not going
to be complaining to our city council members that they got a ticket for
driving 45 in a 35 on Roxboro St. if they live in Oxford. It's really
the same thing as passing a hotel occupancy tax when you think about it.
Again, i'd be interested in seeing your data, especially if you want to
back up the claim that "unfortunately many people show less concern away
from home." My experience is that people drive the same way whether
they're in town or visiting their friends across the country. Our red
lights and stop signs are the same as the ones in Apex. I'm pretty sure
our speed limits in residential areas are the same too.
No idea if our enforcement patterns are the same, however. If people are
driving differently in Durham than they are in Garner, though, perhaps
that has something to do with it.
Barry Ragin
On 3/14/11 2:45 PM, Reyn Bowman wrote:
> that of course wasn't my point...we just need to do more than talk
> about ourselves to ourselves to solve the problem...
> Two out of three peope working in Durham right now are non-residents,
> coupled with daytrip and overnight visitors and visiting friends and
> relatives, more than half of those driving on our streets including
> those working for the City and County don't live here...unfortunately
> many people show less concern away from home...
> if we want to solve this we must do more than address resident behavior...
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Barry Ragin <bragin at nc.rr.com
> <mailto:bragin at nc.rr.com>> wrote:
>
> 1) I'd love to see that data - we're not talking about I-40 or
> I-85 here, but rather, Duke Street, Alston Ave., Geer St., Markham
> Ave., Fayetteville Street, etc.
>
> 2) Even if true, so what? Those of us who live on Durham streets
> are still the ones who have to deal with the problem of people
> driving on Durham streets. In fact, if most of the violators are
> from out of town, that should make enforcement easier. There's no
> local constituency to have to appease by lax enforcement of our laws.
>
> This reflexive "don't blame us" attitude, which i've seen from one
> other person in response to this discussion, contributes
> absolutely nothing towards its resolution.
>
> Barry Ragin
>
>
> On 3/14/11 1:48 PM, Reyn Bowman wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that more than half of the drivers on Durham's
> roads don't live in Durham!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 14, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Phillip Bost
> <philliposophy at gmail.com <mailto:philliposophy at gmail.com>
> <mailto:philliposophy at gmail.com
> <mailto:philliposophy at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> Very interesting and important conversation happening in
> Duke Park/PAC-2 regarding Durham's apparently lawless
> roads. Conversation begins at the bottom and continues upward.
> I would love to read an 'official' response from someone
> working for Durham (and Durham's citizens).
> (I removed email addresses, last names, and addresses
> before sending.)
> Phil Bost
> Duke Park/PAC-2
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Barry
> Date: Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [dukepark] Re: [pac2] What is up with Durham
> drivers?
> To: dukepark at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:dukepark at yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:dukepark at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:dukepark at yahoogroups.com>>, PAC2 at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PAC2 at yahoogroups.com> <mailto:PAC2 at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PAC2 at yahoogroups.com>>
>
> Steve - i wanted to thank you for passionately giving
> public voice to
> the frustration that i and so many others around Durham
> feel at the
> seeming inability of our city leaders to recognize, let
> alone take steps
> to control, this problem. Traffic calming and pedestrian
> safety are at
> the heart of the "livable streets" or "total communities"
> concepts which
> our leadership will occasionally reference without taking
> real action.
>
> It's especially frustrating because there are people in
> city government
> who get it. I've worked with both Phil Loziuk and Mark
> Ahrendsen in the
> Transportation Department (there are others in that
> department who
> understand the issue as well), and Councilman Woodard has
> also been
> quick to push for improvements to pedestrian safety when
> able. But we've
> already seen numerous instances of serious injury and
> fatalities on our
> streets that do not result in any efforts to make them safer.
>
> Earlier this year i had occasion to discuss with the head
> of the
> City/County Inspections Department a vehicle with their
> logo that i
> observed speeding down northbound Roxboro Street; i
> thought my concerns
> were taken seriously and i have no reason to believe that
> appropriate
> actions were not taken. But even if we assume that every
> official
> vehicle is speeding every time it's in use, and that we
> can get every
> one of those drivers to start observing speed limits and
> traffic laws,
> we're still only talking about a minuscule portion of the
> problem.
>
> In nearly 40 years of being a driver, Durham remains the
> only place i've
> lived in where the number of people i know who are asking
> the police to
> enforce traffic laws far exceeds the number of people i
> know who have
> received traffic and speeding tickets. I know of attorneys
> who claim
> they represent drivers in court every week who are
> contesting their
> citations, but compared to the sheer number of illegal and
> dangerous
> actions i see on the road every single day in Durham, the
> number of
> citations actually written pales in significance.
>
> People who deal with these things for a living talk about
> the "three
> E's:" engineering, education, and enforcement. Our
> opportunities for
> re-engineering our streets are somewhat constrained. In
> north Durham,
> for instance, Guess Road had its once in a lifetime
> widening a few years
> ago. Several serious pedestrian accidents, including at
> least one
> fatality involving a high school student heading across
> town to
> Riverside early one morning, did not inspire any changes
> in the road
> design, and other than the speed trailer showing up for a
> couple of
> weeks, i'm not sure there's ever been a consistent effort
> to enforce the
> 35 mile limit there. Similarly, in east Durham, Alston
> Ave., Miami Blvd,
> Highway 98, etc., all see more than their share of
> pedestrian accidents,
> including fatalities. The city and state have a chance to
> get it right
> with the Alston Ave. redesign, and there are theoretically
> some
> improvements coming along Miami Blvd. as a result of the
> East End
> connector project, but so far the proposals for Alston
> cannot be said to
> be entirely pedestrian friendly, and who knows how long it
> will be
> before the projects peripheral to the EEC are actually
> implemented.
>
> Durham has, though, shown that it can move with haste and
> purpose in
> dealing with pedestrian safety issues, given the proper
> motivation.
> Several years back, a Duke grad student was injured
> crossing Broad
> Street near Whole Foods. Despite initial objects from
> state DOT
> personnel that adding a second traffic light at Perry
> Street, with
> pedestrian activated walk signals was not warranted
> according to the
> Traffic Manual, exactly that set-up was installed. As i
> recall, the
> entire process took less than 120 days from accident to
> new pedestrian
> safety features. Along Club Blvd., our friends in the Watts
> Hospital-Hillandale neighborhood successfully petitioned
> the city to
> install a state of the art traffic calming chicane set-up
> where Club
> passes through Oval Drive Park. Part of the justification
> of that
> project was to have been its use as a "pilot project" to
> determine
> whether or not similar projects might be justified in
> other parts of
> town. Hopefully enough data has been gathered over the
> past few years to
> start making that determination, and if the project has in
> fact made
> being a pedestrian safer, we can expect to see our city
> leadership
> including funding for similar pedestrian safety projects
> in other parts
> of town.
>
> But, barring that, we are still dependent on the other two
> E's,
> education and enforcement, to make the difference in our
> communities.
> How many drivers in Durham know that NC state law requires
> drivers to
> yield to pedestrians in crosswalks under nearly all
> circumstances? How
> many times do i see someone attempting to cross Roxboro
> Street on their
> way to or from Duke Park, standing in the crosswalk while
> vehicles whizz
> by at speeds well in excess of 35 mph? How many traffic
> citations were
> written by Durham PD over the past 12 months for crosswalk
> encroachment,
> or failure to yield to pedestrians? I've asked that
> question a dozen
> times or more over the past few years, and i've never
> gotten an answer.
> My guess is that the answer is not materially different
> from zero.
>
> As to Avondale Drive, traffic there is an interesting
> situation.
> Southbound, after you cross the freeway, two lanes merge
> into one,
> generally creating enough friction, at least when there is
> traffic on
> the road, to keep the bulk of the traffic at the speed
> limit, or even
> below. Northbound is a different story, as there are no
> natural barriers
> to speeds up to and exceeding 50 mph. What that means is
> that the
> overall numbers tend to obscure the problem - i recall
> from discussion
> with city traffic engineers that the 80th percentile was
> somewhere near
> 37mph, which is considered to be reasonable. On the other
> hand, though,
> a 48 hour study in 2005 showed at least one vehicle every
> hour exceeding
> 50 mph. To me, that suggests an enforcement based
> solution. I haven't
> seen any indication, however, from upper echelons of city
> and police
> management, that they consider traffic law enforcement to
> be a priority
> issue for Durham. Perhaps future generations will
> affectionately refer
> to Durham as the "Boston of the South."
>
> When you add the traffic issues, housing code violations
> that have been
> ignored, animal abuse, domestic violence, dumping, lawn
> parking, noise
> violations, and other ongoing problems along Avondale,
> it's a wonder
> that city officials, who often tout the "broken windows"
> theory of
> community engagement, haven't made this gateway road to
> Durham a
> priority. Many of the violations along Avondale fall under
> what Durham
> officials politely call "complaint driven" ordinances. In
> theory, this
> encourages citizens to "be the eyes and ears" of Durham's
> various
> enforcement communities. In practice, what this really
> means is that
> reporting ongoing violations is just as likely to be met
> with "you know,
> there are many other neighborhoods in Durham who would
> willingly trade
> your problems for theirs" as it is with citations. The end
> result is
> probably predictable - homeowners moving out, landlords
> neglecting their
> properties, vacancies, trash, and a 10-20 year cycle of
> declining
> property values and neglect that will require expensive city
> intervention and a new generation of urban pioneers to
> overcome.
>
> Sigh.
>
> Barry Ragin
> 1706 Shawnee St.
>
> > On 3/12/11 2:04 PM, Steve wrote:
> >
> > Oh I know! I drive up and down that street frequently
> and see the
> > scofflaws zooming around with no regard for others. I
> know that a pet
> > peeve of Barry Ragin is all the cars that he HEARS
> zooming around and
> > he doesn't even live on Avondale.
> >
> > It all comes down to two things: There is a complete
> lack of respect
> > for our neighborhoods, and an almost complete lack of
> consequences to
> > those who speed around through our neighborhoods, drive
> on the wrong
> > side of the road, run through stop signs and red lights,
> tailgate, and
> > in generally drive like, um, well, jackasses.
> >
> > If the city doesn't do something about this someone is
> going to be
> > killed by one of these reckless drivers. It's long past
> time for the
> > city to wake up to the seriousness of this problem.
> >
> >
> > Steve
>
> >> On Mar 12, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Mark wrote:
> >>
> >> If you really want to see the worst offenders spend an
> afternoon on
> >> Avondale. You will be shocked
>
> >> *From*: Steve
> >> *Subject*: Re: [dukepark] Re: [pac2] What is up with
> Durham drivers?
> >>
> >> If they passed your in an opposed lane, then yes it's
> illegal. If
> >> they blocked the intersection then yes it's illegal.
> >>
> >> Durham, city of lawlessness!
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve
>
> >>> On Mar 12, 2011, at 11:43 AM, Laurie wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I was quite annoyed (and shocked) that two cars went
> around me the
> >>> other day, when I stopped at a green light so as not
> to block the
> >>> intersection. They then, of course, had to cut in
> front of me to get
> >>> back in the lane they needed to be in. Not technically
> illegal, but
> >>> very rude (not to mention dangerous).
> >>>
> >>> Laurie
> >>> Everett Place
>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Dan wrote:
> >>> You are right to be po'd Steve. One thing we have
> talked about
> >>> on the bikeped list serve is that citizens should
> ALWAYS call in
> >>> commercial and government vehicles they see engaged in
> reckless
> >>> driving/speeding. The City supposedly makes drivers
> who get
> >>> called in take remedial driving class.
> >>> Dan
>
> >>> Steve writes:
> >>> Whether someone lives in Durham, works in Durham,
> WORKS FOR
> >>> the City of Durham, or is just passing through, their
> >>> reckless driving endangers us all. It also adversely
> affects
> >>> the quality of life for many, if not all of us, as we
> drive,
> >>> bike and walk throughout our city.
> >>>
> >>> Steve
>
> >>>> On Mar 12, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Jessica wrote:
> >>>> Let’s not make assumptions. Last time I checked our
> license
> >>>> plates say North Carolina. Just because someone is
> driving
> >>>> in Durham, let’s not assume that they are a Durham
> driver.
>
> >>>> From Betty:
> >>>> *Subject:*Re: [pac2] What is up with Durham drivers?
> >>>> You are so right! While waiting to turn left at Murray &
> >>>> Roxboro, a number of times I have almost been hit by
> a car
> >>>> rushing through (their) red light - now after the light
> >>>> changes I wait until traffic has actually stopped
> both ways
> >>>> which irritates a driver behind me. Sorry about that.
> What
> >>>> purpose do posted speed limits serve? The majority
> >>>> obviously believe they don't apply to them. Sometimes I
> >>>> think that whatever speed limit is desired in an
> area, then
> >>>> the posted speed should be 10 mph less.
> >>>> One peeve of mine is that when I don't fly through a
> yellow
> >>>> light, a car behind me passes me in the left-turn lane. I
> >>>> thought a yellow light is a caution to slow and
> prepare to
> >>>> stop--not speed up so as not to stop. And slow down
> to look
> >>>> for a store, etc.--forget it.
> >>>> I tried displaying a "pace" decal but I think that
> >>>> irritated people. Also I have observed someone with said
> >>>> decal displayed not driving posted speed limits.
> >>>> No wonder new drivers speed and take reckless
> chances. Look
> >>>> at the example their parents set. I chastised my
> son-in-law
> >>>> in Greensboro for this with his two kids and his answer
> >>>> "you have to drive over the speed limit to prevent other
> >>>> drivers from running over you." In his residential area,
> >>>> where roads are real curvy, the posted MPH is 25 but
> >>>> everyone ignores it--even him.
> >>>> This is not to say that on the highway, I may go 5-7 mph
> >>>> over the speed limit but in residential areas I do
> obey the
> >>>> limit--mostly out of respect for all the pedestrians and
> >>>> also TO OBEY THE LAW which I am not above!
> >>>> Our neighborhood has 25 MPH signs (my street doesn't) it
> >>>> only has 11 houses and the sanitation, etc. trucks
> fly down
> >>>> it, not to mention the UPS trucks. In recent months
> it has
> >>>> been used as a short-cut (it's really not) between two
> >>>> streets but it doesn't omit a stop sign so they fly up to
> >>>> the sign, some actually stopping, others just slowing
> down.
> >>>> What part of STOP can't they read.
> >>>> And being female, I hate to say it, but I think women are
> >>>> the worst offenders. There, thanks for letting me vent.
> >>>> Betty
>
> >>>> On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Steve wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I continue to be amazed a how truly awful many Durham
> >>>> drivers are. Last week I heard a bad car crash right in
> >>>> front of our house. A car speeding up a side-street
> slammed
> >>>> into the back or a car stopped at a stop sign in front of
> >>>> it, pushing it into traffic. Fortunately, injuries seemed
> >>>> to be light, though one car was totaled.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wednesday while I was sitting on my front porch I
> >>>> witnessed a City of Durham Public Works truck go
> barreling
> >>>> down my street, engine roaring, at a speed of between
> 45 -
> >>>> 50 mph. Our speed limit is 25 mph. Unfortunately, seeing
> >>>> city vehicles speed down my street is something I see
> just
> >>>> about every hour of every day.
> >>>>
> >>>> This evening while I was out walking our dogs I
> witnessed a
> >>>> car come to a red light, slow down, then make a left turn
> >>>> against the red light onto N. Roxboro St. This is the
> very
> >>>> location where many car crashes have occurred; crashes
> >>>> caused by these same type of reckless actions. One
> neighbor
> >>>> who lives on the corner got so fed up with cars crashing
> >>>> into the fence that they sold their house and moved.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is not the type of neighborhood I want to live in.
> >>>> This is not the type of city I want to live in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I am very angry. The city should expect to hear more
> >>>> from me at Coffee with Council which is occurring this
> >>>> coming Monday.
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve
>
> __._,_.___
> Reply to sender <mailto:philliposophy at gmail.com
> <mailto:philliposophy at gmail.com>?subject=Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20What%20is%20up%20with%20Durham%20drivers%3F>
> | Reply to group <mailto:pac3 at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:pac3 at yahoogroups.com>?subject=Re%3A%20Fwd%3A%20What%20is%20up%20with%20Durham%20drivers%3F>
> | Reply via web post
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwZnMwOWhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBG1zZ0lkAzU3NDUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzAwMTI0MzI0?act=reply&messageNum=5745
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwZnMwOWhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBG1zZ0lkAzU3NDUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMzAwMTI0MzI0?act=reply&messageNum=5745>>
> | Start a New Topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbHJsNHBiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMwMDEyNDMyNA-->
>
> Messages in this topic
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3/message/5745;_ylc=X3oDMTM0aXJ1YjhpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBG1zZ0lkAzU3NDUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMzAwMTI0MzI0BHRwY0lkAzU3NDU->
> (1)
> Recent Activity:
>
> * New Members
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmN2VudnYxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMDAxMjQzMjQ-?o=6>
> 2
> * New Files
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnbHVoMHF2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMzAwMTI0MzI0>
> 5
>
> Visit Your Group
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pac3;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2tsYnBmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMwMDEyNDMyNA-->
>
> MARKETPLACE
>
> Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat
> Answers Center.
> <http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o99bmm9/M=493064.14543977.14365476.10835568/D=groups/S=1707230401:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1300131525/L=e924a4c0-4e61-11e0-8d76-6f3d074ab5fe/B=JgZjQkwNPH4-/J=1300124325149448/K=wVd7AwHpD0mouyL.qnDSzw/A=6078812/R=0/SIG=114ae4ln1/*http://dogandcatanswers.yahoo.com/>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the
> page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
> <http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o0tsp2p/M=493064.14543979.14365478.13298430/D=groups/S=1707230401:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1300131525/L=e924a4c0-4e61-11e0-8d76-6f3d074ab5fe/B=JQZjQkwNPH4-/J=1300124325149448/K=wVd7AwHpD0mouyL.qnDSzw/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj>
>
> Yahoo! Groups
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMDI1cmo5BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzMwMzQ4MTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjMwNDAxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzAwMTI0MzI0>
>
> Switch to: Text-Only
> <mailto:pac3-traditional at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:pac3-traditional at yahoogroups.com>?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional>,
> Daily Digest <mailto:pac3-digest at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:pac3-digest at yahoogroups.com>?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest>
> • Unsubscribe <mailto:pac3-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:pac3-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com>?subject=Unsubscribe>
> • Terms of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> .
>
> __,_._,___
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Durham INC Mailing List
> list at durham-inc.org <mailto:list at durham-inc.org>
> http://www.durham-inc.org/list.html
>
>
>
>
> --
> Reyn Bowman
> 2203 Shoreham St
> Durham, NC 27707
> 919-381-1497
> www.bullcitymutterings.com <http://www.bullcitymutterings.com>
More information about the INC-list
mailing list