INC NEWS - Panhandling/Jaywalking Discussion

[Colin Crossman]

To those interested in continuing the panhandling/jaywalking/order 
maintenance/etc. discussion, I've created a temporary list serve.  I've 
already added several people to it, but those others interested in 
continuing to watch/contribute to the discussion, head to

	  	http://groups.google.com/group/DSIC


The email for the list is DSIC at googlegroups.com

It's certainly been interesting!
-Colin

Newman Aguiar wrote:
> Kevin,
>
> Perhaps we should take this discussion off list as it merits further
> consideration.  I certainly would be willing to continue to discuss this
> further.
>
> My sense is that we largely agree that poverty is a serious problem and, as
> a nation, we ought to give serious consideration to reducing and/or
> eliminating it.
>
> One thing is clear from the longitudinal study data, poverty alone cannot be
> directly correlated with crime.  I think, although I'm not aware of the
> existence of any such study, that if we conducted a similar longitudinal
> study in a state like North Carolina, with a significant population living
> below the poverty line, we would find stronger evidence that poverty by
> itself is not correlated with crime.   
>
> I can understand your difficulty with Crutchfield's definition of "labor
> market instability."  I have some difficulty with it also.  However, I
> believe he is pointing to the influence of group effects under certain
> conditions that are more directly related to crime, than poverty itself.
> I'm sure there are others on this list that can do a better job than I of
> explaining these complex interactions.
>
> Newman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Maxwell Farmer [mailto:kfarm at nc.rr.com] 
> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:15 PM
> To: Newman Aguiar
> Cc: pac2 at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pac2] Re: INC NEWS - Hey--time out!
>
> it just seems like a false dichotomy to me, newman-
>
> crutchfield is saying that poverty is not the sole mitigating factor in
> crime, that there are other causes:
>
> -unemployment/marginal employment, what he calls "labor market
> instability"; and
>
> -immersion in an environment wherein the majority of the population are
> either unemployed, or marginally employed, where "labor market
> instability" is high.
>
> given that the federal government has defined marginal employment as
> "living in poverty," and assuming we can say the same thing about
> unemployment, it just seems odd to me to then say "look, it's not just
> poverty, it's also labor market instability," when labor market
> instability sounds a lot like poverty to me. (the satirical version
> would go something like this: "it's not that people are poor, it's that
> they don't have any money.")
>
> does that make more sense?
>
> -kevin
>
>
>
> Newman Aguiar wrote:
>   
>> Kevin,
>>
>> I don't believe that Crutchfield's separation of poverty and market
>> instability is flawed.  The point is that poverty itself does not cause or
>> lead to criminal or deviant behavior.  Just because somebody is poor
>>     
> doesn't
>   
>> mean that they will turn to a life of crime.  Previously, it was believed
>> that poverty is a strong predictor of criminal or deviant behavior.
>> Perhaps, many still believe this, because it is very easy for us to
>>     
> believe
>   
>> that poverty and crime are causally related.  Not because the data support
>> it, but because of the visceral response we have toward the poor and
>> society's continued marginalization of the poor.
>>
>> In fact, we have a serious problem with poverty in America as the federal
>> stats suggest.  We have much to do to acknowledge and address this growing
>> problem.  However, I fail to see why this fact goes against Crutchfield's
>> findings.  If Crutchfield was wrong and the two were causally related, our
>> crime statistics would look very different.
>>
>> Newman    
>>
>>     
>
>
>
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