[Durham INC] [C+H Neighborhood] Copper Theft

[Colin Crossman]

Randy:

Regarding your claim that my figures are in error, you misrepresent
the issue.  This discussion is about copper, not steel.

The point I made about the value of a container was for a container of
copper, not the steel and paper you reference.  Indeed, scrap steel is
very low in price, but, had you bothered to look at the current spot
prices, you'd find that scrap copper is worth about $1 per pound.
Yes, steel is only worth a few dollars a ton. That's why no one takes
the steel frame of the A/C unit - only the copper coils.

Regarding the impact of tax issues on neighborhoods, I remind you that
tax evasion played a major part bringing down the mob, which helped
save whole cities from the grip of crime.  This is merely a tool,
which, if employed properly, has been used successfully to stem the
tide of crime in the past. This has been brought up since the theft of
copper has been a huge problem in East Durham, and this is a way to
reduce that problem, without impact on law-abiding citizens.  It helps
the state to collect money that it is already owed, and it pays for
itself, keeping more money in our budgets for other neighborhood
issues.

That is why it is a neighborhood issue.

-crc


On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:26 PM, RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com> wrote:
> Let me use Maine as an example since I am more familuar with some system
> that actually works.
>
> On the side of each drink container you will find States listed where a
> fee is paid at point-of-sale. The legislation that created the returnable
> container fee was called the Bottle Bill. In Maine, that fee ($.05) is
> tacked on to ever container sold. You even see the States who support this
> recycling effort listed on containers here (where we have yet to pass a
> bottle bill). The stores collect the $.05 and pass it along to the State.
> In turn, the State repays recycling centers (independently owned
> bussinesses) to collect the empty used containers. These collection
> centers pay individuals/groups the $.05 that was paid at point-of-purchase
> when they are returned. In return for their service, the State pays the
> collection centers $.02 + some percentage (this was the last time I recall
> what it amounted to being)  for recycling the containers. It's recycling
> and there is no tax. Tax on the goods are paid when initially sold, but no
> tax is collected on the recycling (except for income earned through
> working at a recycling center). Once these recycled metals/plastics are
> melted down and fabricated into something else, the cycle starts over.
> Hence re-cycle. The problem all of this solved was litter. Now the
> roadsides have no containers on them because they are all worth $.05 to
> anyone who returns them. And any tax collected would be marginal compared
> to the benefit of lack of container litter.
>
> In our business, we recycled paper. Not your typical newspaper or
> cardboard; large rolls of manufactured paper that was the raw materials
> for napkins, toilet paper or paper towels. We had contracts to buy all the
> waste paper made by the mills. These lage rolls weighed from 500-800
> pounds each. We bought them initially for $.0025 a pound. Once recycled,
> we sold them for $.99 a pound. We didn't pay tax on the initial purchase,
> but colllected tax on the sell of remanufactured goods. We also payed
> income tax on those who worked for us.
>
> Tax, collection and avoidance is not some place INC needs to be. It really
> does not affect neighborhoods in the least. You want to deal in taxation
> issues, do it with government at that level. I totally disagree that
> recycling should be taxed; income or otherwise. It will do nothing to
> improve any neighborhood in Durham (unless it is encouraged). There is
> currently no incentive for people to recycle although we have worthless
> City ordinances that maintain it is against the law. Adding more
> disincentives will do nothing to help recycling efforts.
>
> Your figure on the value of a container of scrap is incorrect. Here's some
> info that will help you out:
>
> United States Scrap Prices Continue to Fall
>
> Posted on March 10th, 2009 by admin
> U.S. scrap prices continue to fall since early February.
>
> During the first week of March, the U.S. scrap prices dropped further by
> US$25~29/ton.  Also seeing a price decline was U.S. busheling scrap price
> which reached US$197~207/ton as well as shredded steel scrap prices which
> hit US$187~197/ton. Meanwhile H1 scrap was priced at US$162~172/ton.
>
> It is said that U.S. scrap demand will remain weak due to the economic
> crisis. U.S. domestic mills have refused to purchase materials.
>
> As for the supply, the scrap consumption from motor vehicles, household
> appliances, etc. are gradually reducing.
> In addition, the U.S. scrap export prices also continued to go down.
>
> Source: www.yieh.com
>
> If you just do the math relative to the information above, you'll see how
> your statement would be impossible. Trucks would not be able to move it
> nor containers hold that much volume or weight.
>
> We filled up the largest container we could last year and had it hauled to
> Raleigh Scrap Metal. The stuff was easily stacked so we were able to
> really fill it up. After the container rental and transport fee, we had a
> net of less than $10. Granted, disposal at the transfer station would have
> cost a great deal and recycling saved a bundle, but there's not a lot of
> margin in the scrap business for anyone to get rich...
>
> Let's scrap this idea and get on with something that will make a
> difference regionally. Ask the Legislative Delegation to unify criminal
> information so it's accessable by all law enforcement regionally. This
> will help make all of our communities safer. Beating on recyling is just
> not green...
>
> RWP
> 27 Beverly
>
>> Your double-taxation point is a red herring. If taxation worked that
>> way, then retailers like WalMart wouldn't have to pay income tax, as
>> their income comes from the sale of goods which are taxed by sales tax
>> (at the point of final sale), and their workers all pay income tax.
>> Indeed, anyone who produces anything wouldn't have to pay tax, since
>> only raw materials can be obtained without sales tax (or an
>> exemption).
>>
>> Your point is incorrect since the income tax is a tax on income and
>> labor, not on the goods themselves.
>>
>> And we're not talking about chump change, we're talking about hundreds
>> of thousands of dollars.  A single container (40') can hold about 32
>> tons.  At today's scrap rates, each container will cost a recycler
>> about $75,000 to fill. That's a lot of nickles and dimes of tax
>> evasion that the state is leaving on the table.
>>
>> -crc
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:28 PM, RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com> wrote:
>>> Tax on recycled items is double taxation because the tax was
>>> paid/collected when sold (sales tax). It's true for HVAC copper just as
>>> it
>>> is with aluminum soda cans. It's true it would be income (if taxed) to
>>> the
>>> party selling it, but if it's that big of a deal, the re-cycler has that
>>> info already in their paperwork and could provide it to any authority
>>> that
>>> wishes to chase the nickels and dimes. It's not a loop hole, it's double
>>> taxation and may even thwart recycling efforts.
>>>
>>> Income from the sell of stolen  copper should be small at best. There
>>> are
>>> many bigger fish to fry...
>>>
>>> RWP
>>> 27 Beverly
>>>
>>>> Randy,
>>>>
>>>> If you examine it closely, it isn't a tax on recycling, it is a tax on
>>>> income, income which is currently evading tax illegally.  It is
>>>> currently the responsibility of the income receiver to declare it,
>>>> however it is only the law-abiding (like you) who follow the rules and
>>>> properly declare their income. This simply causes the seller to
>>>> formally recognize their income - just like the rest of us.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing special here, it looks like it's just closing a loophole which
>>>> allows illegal activity to flourish, and raising funds for the state
>>>> in the process.
>>>>
>>>> -crc
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:27 PM, RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com> wrote:
>>>>> So now, even though many recycling efforts have failed, we want to
>>>>> further
>>>>> "tax" the recycling industry? I understand the desire of this, but
>>>>> recycling should be rewarded and not penalized. And adding to the
>>>>> burden
>>>>> is not the way to do this. You already have to have a valid photo ID
>>>>> to
>>>>> recycle metals (at valid recycling operations) and personal
>>>>> information
>>>>> is
>>>>> gathered in that process. What's the purpose of the legislation when
>>>>> thieves can just haul their booty to VA (like the manhole cover thefts
>>>>> that occurred last year)? These are thefts of personal property (from
>>>>> private property typically) and do not effect the common nature of
>>>>> city-wide neighborhoods. Home owners insurance generally covers the
>>>>> theft
>>>>> so there is no public loss. It's not a neighborhood issue when only
>>>>> individuals are the ones involved... And although I'll suggest this
>>>>> with
>>>>> no supporting evidence, it may be that the individual property owners
>>>>> are
>>>>> involved in the thefts themselves. It would be a lot cheaper to pay
>>>>> the
>>>>> insurance premiums than replace a HVAC system in a property for sell.
>>>>> Not
>>>>> may homes have ever had the copper removed while occupied...
>>>>>
>>>>> In conversations just now with the Captain of District 3, he said
>>>>> copper
>>>>> theft has almost disappeared. He didn't recall one in the last 30
>>>>> days.
>>>>> And he didn't recall it being an issue across the City when the whole
>>>>> Police force leadership met last. There are more car thefts across
>>>>> this
>>>>> City than copper thefts. And this is every day... So are junk yards
>>>>> next?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is another "feel good" issue that is best left out of our
>>>>> Legislative
>>>>> Delegation's hands. I'll mention this again, a far better issue for
>>>>> them
>>>>> to take forward is a communication/database system where all local law
>>>>> enforcement can find out information. As an example, Durham County
>>>>> Sheriff's Department does not have access to the P2P system that
>>>>> Durham
>>>>> City Police uses. And as you spread out across our region, you have
>>>>> Orange, Wake, Person, etc. that do not have the same access of
>>>>> information
>>>>> sharing. The week before Eve Carson was shot, those involved were over
>>>>> in
>>>>> Orange County (they didn't live there) and were stopped for another
>>>>> issue.
>>>>> Had Orange County been able to see they were on probation in Durham,
>>>>> they
>>>>> would have been in jail and not involved in the Carson death. To me,
>>>>> this
>>>>> is one of the most pressing law enforcement issues that would make all
>>>>> of
>>>>> our streets safer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Build a metal box around your HVAC ststem to protect it from theft if
>>>>> it's
>>>>> an issue, don't ask our Legislative Delegation to waste time on
>>>>> personal
>>>>> issues...
>>>>>
>>>>> RWP
>>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is an excellent resolution. In addition to being a
>>>>>> neighborhood
>>>>>> issue, it is also a crime issue. Therefor (in my opinion) it should
>>>>>>  be
>>>>>> endorsed by all five of Durham's Partners Against Crime
>>>>>> organizations,
>>>>>> Durham
>>>>>> Businesses Against Crime, and InterNeighborhood Council.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I'm not subscribed to PAC 1, 3, 4, & 5, perhaps someone will
>>>>>> forward
>>>>>> this suggestion to the others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Anderson
>>>>>> PAC2
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a message dated 3/12/2009 12:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>>> Ken at KenGasch.com writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please take a gander at resolution below. Authored by Colin
>>>>>>  Crossman
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> me..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would like for Cleveland-Holloway to sponsor.   (i.e. place in
>>>>>> hopper
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> INC)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments?  Questions?  Go,  no-Go?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken  Gasch
>>>>>> ********************************************************************
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas,  the current laws respecting the theft of copper, including
>>>>>> the latest  revisions passed by the North Carolina General Assembly
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> _____, have not  been successful in stemming the tide of copper
>>>>>> theft;
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas,  though the economic downturn has decreased the price of
>>>>>> copper, the  magnitude of the problem is only increasing, and the
>>>>>> injury done to the  community is substantial; and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas, the State of North Carolina and  the several counties and
>>>>>> municipalities are facing an extreme budget  shortfall, and that
>>>>>> such a
>>>>>> shortfall is not helped by the fact that metal  recyclers do not
>>>>>> report
>>>>>> metal sales to the taxing authority, and this  results in a
>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>> amount of untaxed economic activity;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IT IS  HEREBY RESOLVED that the Durham InterNeighborhood Council
>>>>>> express the sense  of the neighborhoods to the Durham Elected
>>>>>> Officials
>>>>>> and the Durham State  Delegation that copper theft remains a problem
>>>>>> and that the state should  look into alternatives which cause all
>>>>>> metal
>>>>>> transactions to be reported to  the Revenue Office, linked with a
>>>>>> valid
>>>>>> tax id number of the metal seller,  for all transactions above
>>>>>>  $10.00.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> http://www.durham-inc.org/list.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Crossman Properties, LLC
>>>> 762 Ninth St #591
>>>> Durham, NC 27705
>>>> www.CrossmanProperties.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
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