INC NEWS - dirt streets to be paved
Colin Crossman
lists at crc32.com
Tue Mar 27 18:29:10 EDT 2007
Kelly and Adaire would be right if this were just a personal debate
between Bill and Randy, then this conversation should be taken off line.
Unfortunately, what has happened here is that this apparent spat is
really the tip of an iceberg of internecine conflict within the INC.
This started with a short and reasonable request from Bill.
-- Quoting Bill Anderson
Not sure why you don't just forward the original message. It would
prevent questions such as "Who is her?" No need to copy and paste, INC
member neighborhoods can take it raw, please forward the original.
-- End
That request derived from a post that INC President David Harris
requested Randy forward to the INC Listserv. This email was edited by
Randy so thoroughly that it didn't even contain the name of the city
staffer it originated from. Though Randy's heart is in the right place
- that people are subjected to an awesome and increasing amount of
information, his editing in many cases crosses from useful summation
into confusion.
Furthermore, later in the day there was an announcement that David
Harris attempted to forward to the INC Listserve that never came
through. Is it important that neighborhoods know about National Night
Out? If it is, then the INC Listserve failed it's mission of informing.
Fortunatly, Ken Gasch was able to post to the listserv at that time, or
the INC members would not have gotten it.
In short, if the INC President can't even get a message across the INC
Listserv, then something is wrong with the Listserv.
I for one, don't want all my information via one person. City
announcements shouldn't look like they only come from RWP. If David had
asked Randy to post this NNO information, and he "spared us the
details", it would look like Randy himself sponsors NNO.
All Bill suggested was that these be forwarded, to aid the city in
communicating with the neighborhoods, and that seems like an excellent
idea. Why that required a dissertation I don't know, but all is not well
with the INC listserv, and INC should look into it.
Colin Crossman
Walltown
ASalt wrote:
> I agree. Enough is enough.
>
> Adaire Salt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <kjj1 at duke.edu>
> To: <inc-list at durhaminc.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: INC NEWS - dirt streets to be paved
>
>
>
>> Hey Randy and Bill--
>>
>> Take it off line and settle this between yourselves.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>> --On Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:27 AM -0400 RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I understand English is a complex language to learn (from those from
>>> other
>>> lands now living here and learning English). I'd like to thank Bill for
>>> his translation of my complex English into "Anderson Basic Script" (or
>>> "Anderson BS" as we like to call it). It was no doubt for those of you
>>> for
>>> which English is a second language. Fortunately, I believe everyone on
>>> the
>>> list speaks and understands English well for I have had no requests for
>>> translation into another language since I have maintained this list. So
>>> the need to "dumb it down"" was probably unnecessary. Adding his emotions
>>> to what he thought I said becomes what he says, not what I said. Perhaps
>>> my English needs to be simpler for Bill and others (thinking the odds are
>>> good that he's not alone even though he suggests he might be; I tend to
>>> agree with him on his assessment that he is alone on this, but we both
>>> could be wrong). As typical, something always gets lost in the
>>> translation...
>>>
>>> I was asked to forward the information I provided about the paving of
>>> gravel streets by our President and did so. It was a piece of info I had
>>> yet seen made known to this neighborhood group list. Any email
>>> conversations one may have with City staff is a matter of public record.
>>> If you want the entire content of any post I ever send to this list that
>>> would provide information other than that which was specifically
>>> requested, you are able to get it under the Sunset Laws from the City. I
>>> saw no reason (here I am deciding things again and deciding what you
>>> might
>>> read should you choose to do so) to forward content that was not
>>> requested
>>> and contained irrelevant information (other than what was requested).
>>> There was not, nor will there ever be, censorship on my part. I was just
>>> providing the specific information as requested. It wasn't a report or
>>> anything other than some good info (if you live in a neighborhood where
>>> one of these streets are located).
>>>
>>> Bill is miffed about the heavy handed moderator of this list (me).
>>> Typically I would have expected him to bring his complaints to the source
>>> instead of airing his disgust (?) via this list. I recently rejected a
>>> number of posts (not just from Bill) and I sent those who were cross
>>> posting, (dragging others from other lists across lists which they didn't
>>> belong) an email notifying them of the actions taken and why. Not
>>> everyone seems to understand how lists work and why there are rules for
>>> posting. Some tend to want to use this list to glorify personal positions
>>> they might take relating to an issue in their own neighborhood or some
>>> other position that is not relevant to something INC is working on.
>>> That's
>>> fine when they contain it to their respective "neighborhood" lists. But
>>> when posts are broadcast across the City, across lists that have a
>>> variety
>>> of people not on all those lists, it creates havoc for all of us who
>>> maintain the mailing lists (which that person for INC is me; I am the
>>> list
>>> administrator). We start getting posts from people who aren't members of
>>> a
>>> particular list and have to decide what to do with those posts. They
>>> create log jams in the system service that otherwise generally operates
>>> maintenance free. It puts an unnecessary burden on those of us who
>>> administer lists. It causes us to actually have to work at making the
>>> list
>>> work. I have taken the position to reject all of these problem posts
>>> because generally the posts aren't coming from members of the INC list.
>>> But when it's a member of the INC list causing the problems (as it was
>>> this last time), I typically take the time to make those involved aware
>>> the consequences of dragging folks who don't belong to a particular list,
>>> across other lists. I try to educate everyone as to how it all works and
>>> why something may just be wrong. Educating folks takes additional time,
>>> but it tends to help the whole list by alleviating the problems at the
>>> source. And as bad as it is, it seems to be the same people who do it
>>> over
>>> and over, never learning or remembering why it is not a good idea to
>>> create these problems in the first place. Just clicking "reply all" seems
>>> to be the biggest culprit. By not looking at where the reply is going (to
>>> what lists or persons), it creates the problem really quick. Compound
>>> that
>>> by sheer numbers of emails and you can see how big this problem quickly
>>> becomes.
>>>
>>> This mailing list is not my personal domain as Bill would like to infer.
>>> It is the email list of INC (I think you all are aware of this). I am
>>> just
>>> the list administrator. And when I make a decision to do something
>>> administrative, that is what I am charged to do. It is done so not out of
>>> ignorance of the service, but from years of experience with it. Issues
>>> are
>>> handled the same, regardless of who the person creating the problem
>>> might
>>> be. Otherwise we'd all be bombarded with spam on the list and that's just
>>> counter productive. So I had to again quietly spank Bill and other
>>> members
>>> of this INC list recently for cross posting and dragging others across
>>> lists. It wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last
>>> (guessing, since it continues to happen even after trying education,
>>> it'll
>>> continue). Hey, it's just my job. Perhaps the remainder of those on this
>>> list appreciate not getting a lot of spam. The system and policies work.
>>> It doesn't happen.
>>>
>>> If this list is quiet, all must be well in the city we call Durham.
>>> Everyone has the same ability to post as any other member. Maybe there is
>>> just not much to talk about right now. Rest assured, it has nothing to do
>>> with me as the administrator. If the lack of delegates at the last meeing
>>> is any example, perhaps times are exceptionally good in Durham right now
>>> and the need for INC involvement is much less. I don't recall another
>>> meeting in the past (going back years and in some very poor weather)
>>> where
>>> there weren't enough members present to vote on something. The resolution
>>> that was on the table to be voted on is now moot as it has already been
>>> dealt with by our government officials. They wanted to know what INC
>>> thought, but we were unable to provide that clue. That's a pretty poor
>>> example to be setting. And this was in a month (Feb.) which typically has
>>> a great deal of involvement since it's winter and there is less to do
>>> outside (or vacations, or school kids out, etc). Every neighborhood has
>>> the option of sending 2 delegates. Getting just one delegate last month
>>> would have been a bonus. At least we could have moved forward instead of
>>> being stuck and doing nothing. Often, time is of the essence as it was
>>> last month on a resolution. By not voicing our opinion as a body, we lost
>>> our opportunity for input into the process. And that is what INC is
>>> really
>>> all about.
>>>
>>> As a Board, we talk about a lot of things that never reach this list. I
>>> am
>>> sorry that conversations are carried on like this. I do believe they
>>> would
>>> stimulate conversation with our reading public if they were posted here.
>>> But for whatever reason, they are dealt with off this list. Nothing
>>> secret, just conversations that perhaps you may wish to have a voice in.
>>> Or maybe the sheer volume would be seen as burdensome and you wouldn't
>>> like it at all. One topic is what the role of this Board actually is;
>>> what
>>> duties you would like to see us perform and services you would like to
>>> see
>>> added. I'll be posting one of these conversations later this weekend
>>> because I think there are some issues that you just need to be made aware
>>> of before deciding directions for this body to take. As I have stressed
>>> to
>>> this Board, we don't make decisions, you the membership do. But perhaps
>>> you'd like us to do more decision making and less of letting you decide.
>>> Or maybe not.
>>>
>>> Someone will probably point out that I suggested in a previous post that
>>> being concise and short were good things. That was relative to the words
>>> of others I guess. I don't mind expounding on things when they are my
>>> words. I guess I'm known for that...
>>>
>>> RWP
>>> 27 Beverly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Randy
>>>>
>>>> Since you know everyone appreciates your effort in making their emails
>>>> shorter and more concise, I'll perform the same service and translate
>>>> what you've
>>>> just said below.
>>>>
>>>> Basically you said, "No Bill, I'm not going to simply forward the
>>>> original emails from city staff and others.
>>>> Everyone besides you appreciates me censoring their information. That
>>>> way
>>>> they don't get muddled in details the way you have. And if you don't
>>>> like
>>>> it,
>>>> don't say so in this public forum, contact me off line."
>>>>
>>>> And from now on, anyone wanting the short version of what Randy has to
>>>> say,
>>>> just come to me and I'll fill you in.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you're right, Randy, perhaps I'm the only one who DOES NOT
>>>> APPRECIATE
>>>> YOU DECIDING WHAT INFORMATION I RECIEVE . And if brevity is the main
>>>> objective, and the public really does want someone to cull their
>>>> information, I
>>>> doubt either one of us is ideal for that job.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't forgotten what a public forum this list used to be, but it
>>>> sure
>>>> has been quiet lately. It only takes a heavy handed listserv moderator
>>>> to
>>>> turn a
>>>> public forum into one man's private domain.
>>>>
>>>> WWA
>>>> 113 Markham
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 3/24/2007 10:00:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>> randy at 27beverly.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> The entire email was not pertinent to the subjected post. That is why
>>>> it
>>>> was parsed. Perhaps you would have liked all of the pages, but I doubt
>>>> that anyone would have enjoyed having their mailboxes packed with more
>>>> irrelevant information. A recent example was an email from another
>>>> Director from another City department. She told us in advance of an
>>>> email that it was 14 meg of material and if we wanted it, she'd send it
>>>> by snail
>>>> mail. I appreciated the fact that she was concerned, as well as she
>>>> should
>>>> have been, that emails of that size would clog most email programs. In
>>>> fact, the list server has a cap on the size of any post because of this
>>>> issue. So when you see something broken down into only the relevant
>>>> parts,
>>>> understand that it was done so for a reason. Not that it was filtered
>>>> or
>>>> "all" of the irrelevant information was not included. I think this is
>>>> generally understood and appreciated by most. Certainly the more
>>>> concise
>>>> an email is, the easier it is read and followed.
>>>>
>>>> So just to respond to your concerns, "her" is Julie Brenmen, the head
>>>> of
>>>> Budget and Finance and the person who heads up CCIP. If you even know
>>>> what
>>>> CCIP is and does, then "her" was known as well. Neither of these pieces
>>>> of
>>>> information were really relevant. The post related to dirt street
>>>> improvements. The message in the post was more important to those who
>>>> wanted this information than the details you wonder about. In fact, if
>>>> you
>>>> follow the work done by our City Council, this is old news as they have
>>>> already dealt with this issue. But it wasn't widely distributed. Most
>>>> neighborhoods with this issue are well aware of what the plans are for
>>>> paving and improving our miles of gravel roads in this City. Some may
>>>> not be, and for those that it is not an issue, it was all irrelevant
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> It's about getting information out there, not the picky irrelevant
>>>> details
>>>> you regularly get muddled in. Complaints are better dealt with off this
>>>> list. It just wastes others time and mailbox space.
>>>>
>>>> RWP
>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not sure why you don't just forward the original message.
>>>>> It would prevent questions such as "Who is her?"
>>>>>
>>>>> No need to copy and paste, INC member neighborhoods can take it raw,
>>>>> please
>>>>> forward the original.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 3/23/2007 9:44:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>> randy at 27beverly.com writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> The following email was sent to the CCIP members (of which I am one
>>>>> representing INC). It regards the dirt streets in Durham that will be
>>>>> improved with the 2005 bond money. The following is a copy and paste
>>>>> from
>>>>> her email to us:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The following street segments will be paved with those funds (plus
>>>>> some
>>>>> funding for water & sewer improvements and sidewalks).
>>>>>
>>>>> Beebe Road
>>>>>
>>>>> Belgreen Road
>>>>>
>>>>> Boone Street
>>>>>
>>>>> Caltalpa Drive
>>>>>
>>>>> Castlerock Drive
>>>>>
>>>>> Chalk Level Road
>>>>>
>>>>> Chicago Street
>>>>>
>>>>> Dial Drive
>>>>>
>>>>> Edgerton Drive
>>>>>
>>>>> Obie Drive
>>>>>
>>>>> Roane Street
>>>>>
>>>>> Wynne Road"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> RWP
>>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INC-list mailing list
>>>>> INC-list at rtpnet.org
>>>>> http://lists.deltaforce.net/mailman/listinfo/inc-list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ************************************** AOL now offers free email to
>>>>> everyone.
>>>>> Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ====================================================================
>>>> This e-mail, and any attachments to it, contains PRIVILEGED AND
>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information intended only for the use of the addressee(s)
>>>> or entity named on the e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient of
>>>> this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to
>>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading,
>>>> dissemination or copying of this e-mail in error is strictly
>>>> prohibited.
>>>> If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please
>>>> notify
>>>> me by telephone (919-489-0576) or by electronic mail to the sender of
>>>> this email, RW Pickle (pickle at patriot.net) immediately.
>>>> =====================================================================
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ************************************** AOL now offers free email to
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>>>>
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>>
>>
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