INC NEWS - dirt streets to be paved
Deb Christie
dchristie1 at nc.rr.com
Tue Mar 27 17:53:34 EDT 2007
I vote for too much information rather than too little. If someone want to
post an "executive summary" at the top, or separately, fine.
Cheers -
Deb Christie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Crossman" <lists at crc32.com>
To: <inc-list at durhaminc.org>
Cc: "Bill Anderson" <TheOcean1 at aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: INC NEWS - dirt streets to be paved
> Kelly and Adaire would be right if this were just a personal debate
> between Bill and Randy, then this conversation should be taken off line.
>
> Unfortunately, what has happened here is that this apparent spat is
> really the tip of an iceberg of internecine conflict within the INC.
>
> This started with a short and reasonable request from Bill.
>
> -- Quoting Bill Anderson
> Not sure why you don't just forward the original message. It would
> prevent questions such as "Who is her?" No need to copy and paste, INC
> member neighborhoods can take it raw, please forward the original.
> -- End
>
> That request derived from a post that INC President David Harris
> requested Randy forward to the INC Listserv. This email was edited by
> Randy so thoroughly that it didn't even contain the name of the city
> staffer it originated from. Though Randy's heart is in the right place
> - that people are subjected to an awesome and increasing amount of
> information, his editing in many cases crosses from useful summation
> into confusion.
>
> Furthermore, later in the day there was an announcement that David
> Harris attempted to forward to the INC Listserve that never came
> through. Is it important that neighborhoods know about National Night
> Out? If it is, then the INC Listserve failed it's mission of informing.
> Fortunatly, Ken Gasch was able to post to the listserv at that time, or
> the INC members would not have gotten it.
>
> In short, if the INC President can't even get a message across the INC
> Listserv, then something is wrong with the Listserv.
>
> I for one, don't want all my information via one person. City
> announcements shouldn't look like they only come from RWP. If David had
> asked Randy to post this NNO information, and he "spared us the
> details", it would look like Randy himself sponsors NNO.
>
> All Bill suggested was that these be forwarded, to aid the city in
> communicating with the neighborhoods, and that seems like an excellent
> idea. Why that required a dissertation I don't know, but all is not well
> with the INC listserv, and INC should look into it.
>
> Colin Crossman
> Walltown
>
> ASalt wrote:
>> I agree. Enough is enough.
>>
>> Adaire Salt
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <kjj1 at duke.edu>
>> To: <inc-list at durhaminc.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: INC NEWS - dirt streets to be paved
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hey Randy and Bill--
>>>
>>> Take it off line and settle this between yourselves.
>>>
>>> Kelly
>>>
>>> --On Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:27 AM -0400 RW Pickle
>>> <randy at 27beverly.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I understand English is a complex language to learn (from those from
>>>> other
>>>> lands now living here and learning English). I'd like to thank Bill for
>>>> his translation of my complex English into "Anderson Basic Script" (or
>>>> "Anderson BS" as we like to call it). It was no doubt for those of you
>>>> for
>>>> which English is a second language. Fortunately, I believe everyone on
>>>> the
>>>> list speaks and understands English well for I have had no requests for
>>>> translation into another language since I have maintained this list. So
>>>> the need to "dumb it down"" was probably unnecessary. Adding his
>>>> emotions
>>>> to what he thought I said becomes what he says, not what I said.
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> my English needs to be simpler for Bill and others (thinking the odds
>>>> are
>>>> good that he's not alone even though he suggests he might be; I tend to
>>>> agree with him on his assessment that he is alone on this, but we both
>>>> could be wrong). As typical, something always gets lost in the
>>>> translation...
>>>>
>>>> I was asked to forward the information I provided about the paving of
>>>> gravel streets by our President and did so. It was a piece of info I
>>>> had
>>>> yet seen made known to this neighborhood group list. Any email
>>>> conversations one may have with City staff is a matter of public
>>>> record.
>>>> If you want the entire content of any post I ever send to this list
>>>> that
>>>> would provide information other than that which was specifically
>>>> requested, you are able to get it under the Sunset Laws from the City.
>>>> I
>>>> saw no reason (here I am deciding things again and deciding what you
>>>> might
>>>> read should you choose to do so) to forward content that was not
>>>> requested
>>>> and contained irrelevant information (other than what was requested).
>>>> There was not, nor will there ever be, censorship on my part. I was
>>>> just
>>>> providing the specific information as requested. It wasn't a report or
>>>> anything other than some good info (if you live in a neighborhood where
>>>> one of these streets are located).
>>>>
>>>> Bill is miffed about the heavy handed moderator of this list (me).
>>>> Typically I would have expected him to bring his complaints to the
>>>> source
>>>> instead of airing his disgust (?) via this list. I recently rejected a
>>>> number of posts (not just from Bill) and I sent those who were cross
>>>> posting, (dragging others from other lists across lists which they
>>>> didn't
>>>> belong) an email notifying them of the actions taken and why. Not
>>>> everyone seems to understand how lists work and why there are rules for
>>>> posting. Some tend to want to use this list to glorify personal
>>>> positions
>>>> they might take relating to an issue in their own neighborhood or some
>>>> other position that is not relevant to something INC is working on.
>>>> That's
>>>> fine when they contain it to their respective "neighborhood" lists. But
>>>> when posts are broadcast across the City, across lists that have a
>>>> variety
>>>> of people not on all those lists, it creates havoc for all of us who
>>>> maintain the mailing lists (which that person for INC is me; I am the
>>>> list
>>>> administrator). We start getting posts from people who aren't members
>>>> of
>>>> a
>>>> particular list and have to decide what to do with those posts. They
>>>> create log jams in the system service that otherwise generally operates
>>>> maintenance free. It puts an unnecessary burden on those of us who
>>>> administer lists. It causes us to actually have to work at making the
>>>> list
>>>> work. I have taken the position to reject all of these problem posts
>>>> because generally the posts aren't coming from members of the INC list.
>>>> But when it's a member of the INC list causing the problems (as it was
>>>> this last time), I typically take the time to make those involved aware
>>>> the consequences of dragging folks who don't belong to a particular
>>>> list,
>>>> across other lists. I try to educate everyone as to how it all works
>>>> and
>>>> why something may just be wrong. Educating folks takes additional
>>>> time,
>>>> but it tends to help the whole list by alleviating the problems at the
>>>> source. And as bad as it is, it seems to be the same people who do it
>>>> over
>>>> and over, never learning or remembering why it is not a good idea to
>>>> create these problems in the first place. Just clicking "reply all"
>>>> seems
>>>> to be the biggest culprit. By not looking at where the reply is going
>>>> (to
>>>> what lists or persons), it creates the problem really quick. Compound
>>>> that
>>>> by sheer numbers of emails and you can see how big this problem quickly
>>>> becomes.
>>>>
>>>> This mailing list is not my personal domain as Bill would like to
>>>> infer.
>>>> It is the email list of INC (I think you all are aware of this). I am
>>>> just
>>>> the list administrator. And when I make a decision to do something
>>>> administrative, that is what I am charged to do. It is done so not out
>>>> of
>>>> ignorance of the service, but from years of experience with it. Issues
>>>> are
>>>> handled the same, regardless of who the person creating the problem
>>>> might
>>>> be. Otherwise we'd all be bombarded with spam on the list and that's
>>>> just
>>>> counter productive. So I had to again quietly spank Bill and other
>>>> members
>>>> of this INC list recently for cross posting and dragging others across
>>>> lists. It wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last
>>>> (guessing, since it continues to happen even after trying education,
>>>> it'll
>>>> continue). Hey, it's just my job. Perhaps the remainder of those on
>>>> this
>>>> list appreciate not getting a lot of spam. The system and policies
>>>> work.
>>>> It doesn't happen.
>>>>
>>>> If this list is quiet, all must be well in the city we call Durham.
>>>> Everyone has the same ability to post as any other member. Maybe there
>>>> is
>>>> just not much to talk about right now. Rest assured, it has nothing to
>>>> do
>>>> with me as the administrator. If the lack of delegates at the last
>>>> meeing
>>>> is any example, perhaps times are exceptionally good in Durham right
>>>> now
>>>> and the need for INC involvement is much less. I don't recall another
>>>> meeting in the past (going back years and in some very poor weather)
>>>> where
>>>> there weren't enough members present to vote on something. The
>>>> resolution
>>>> that was on the table to be voted on is now moot as it has already been
>>>> dealt with by our government officials. They wanted to know what INC
>>>> thought, but we were unable to provide that clue. That's a pretty poor
>>>> example to be setting. And this was in a month (Feb.) which typically
>>>> has
>>>> a great deal of involvement since it's winter and there is less to do
>>>> outside (or vacations, or school kids out, etc). Every neighborhood has
>>>> the option of sending 2 delegates. Getting just one delegate last month
>>>> would have been a bonus. At least we could have moved forward instead
>>>> of
>>>> being stuck and doing nothing. Often, time is of the essence as it was
>>>> last month on a resolution. By not voicing our opinion as a body, we
>>>> lost
>>>> our opportunity for input into the process. And that is what INC is
>>>> really
>>>> all about.
>>>>
>>>> As a Board, we talk about a lot of things that never reach this list. I
>>>> am
>>>> sorry that conversations are carried on like this. I do believe they
>>>> would
>>>> stimulate conversation with our reading public if they were posted
>>>> here.
>>>> But for whatever reason, they are dealt with off this list. Nothing
>>>> secret, just conversations that perhaps you may wish to have a voice
>>>> in.
>>>> Or maybe the sheer volume would be seen as burdensome and you wouldn't
>>>> like it at all. One topic is what the role of this Board actually is;
>>>> what
>>>> duties you would like to see us perform and services you would like to
>>>> see
>>>> added. I'll be posting one of these conversations later this weekend
>>>> because I think there are some issues that you just need to be made
>>>> aware
>>>> of before deciding directions for this body to take. As I have stressed
>>>> to
>>>> this Board, we don't make decisions, you the membership do. But perhaps
>>>> you'd like us to do more decision making and less of letting you
>>>> decide.
>>>> Or maybe not.
>>>>
>>>> Someone will probably point out that I suggested in a previous post
>>>> that
>>>> being concise and short were good things. That was relative to the
>>>> words
>>>> of others I guess. I don't mind expounding on things when they are my
>>>> words. I guess I'm known for that...
>>>>
>>>> RWP
>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Randy
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you know everyone appreciates your effort in making their
>>>>> emails
>>>>> shorter and more concise, I'll perform the same service and translate
>>>>> what you've
>>>>> just said below.
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically you said, "No Bill, I'm not going to simply forward the
>>>>> original emails from city staff and others.
>>>>> Everyone besides you appreciates me censoring their information. That
>>>>> way
>>>>> they don't get muddled in details the way you have. And if you don't
>>>>> like
>>>>> it,
>>>>> don't say so in this public forum, contact me off line."
>>>>>
>>>>> And from now on, anyone wanting the short version of what Randy has
>>>>> to
>>>>> say,
>>>>> just come to me and I'll fill you in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe you're right, Randy, perhaps I'm the only one who DOES NOT
>>>>> APPRECIATE
>>>>> YOU DECIDING WHAT INFORMATION I RECIEVE . And if brevity is the main
>>>>> objective, and the public really does want someone to cull their
>>>>> information, I
>>>>> doubt either one of us is ideal for that job.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't forgotten what a public forum this list used to be, but it
>>>>> sure
>>>>> has been quiet lately. It only takes a heavy handed listserv moderator
>>>>> to
>>>>> turn a
>>>>> public forum into one man's private domain.
>>>>>
>>>>> WWA
>>>>> 113 Markham
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 3/24/2007 10:00:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>> randy at 27beverly.com writes:
>>>>>
>>>>> The entire email was not pertinent to the subjected post. That is why
>>>>> it
>>>>> was parsed. Perhaps you would have liked all of the pages, but I
>>>>> doubt
>>>>> that anyone would have enjoyed having their mailboxes packed with
>>>>> more
>>>>> irrelevant information. A recent example was an email from another
>>>>> Director from another City department. She told us in advance of an
>>>>> email that it was 14 meg of material and if we wanted it, she'd send
>>>>> it
>>>>> by snail
>>>>> mail. I appreciated the fact that she was concerned, as well as she
>>>>> should
>>>>> have been, that emails of that size would clog most email programs.
>>>>> In
>>>>> fact, the list server has a cap on the size of any post because of
>>>>> this
>>>>> issue. So when you see something broken down into only the relevant
>>>>> parts,
>>>>> understand that it was done so for a reason. Not that it was filtered
>>>>> or
>>>>> "all" of the irrelevant information was not included. I think this is
>>>>> generally understood and appreciated by most. Certainly the more
>>>>> concise
>>>>> an email is, the easier it is read and followed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So just to respond to your concerns, "her" is Julie Brenmen, the head
>>>>> of
>>>>> Budget and Finance and the person who heads up CCIP. If you even know
>>>>> what
>>>>> CCIP is and does, then "her" was known as well. Neither of these
>>>>> pieces
>>>>> of
>>>>> information were really relevant. The post related to dirt street
>>>>> improvements. The message in the post was more important to those who
>>>>> wanted this information than the details you wonder about. In fact,
>>>>> if
>>>>> you
>>>>> follow the work done by our City Council, this is old news as they
>>>>> have
>>>>> already dealt with this issue. But it wasn't widely distributed. Most
>>>>> neighborhoods with this issue are well aware of what the plans are
>>>>> for
>>>>> paving and improving our miles of gravel roads in this City. Some may
>>>>> not be, and for those that it is not an issue, it was all irrelevant
>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's about getting information out there, not the picky irrelevant
>>>>> details
>>>>> you regularly get muddled in. Complaints are better dealt with off
>>>>> this
>>>>> list. It just wastes others time and mailbox space.
>>>>>
>>>>> RWP
>>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure why you don't just forward the original message.
>>>>>> It would prevent questions such as "Who is her?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No need to copy and paste, INC member neighborhoods can take it raw,
>>>>>> please
>>>>>> forward the original.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a message dated 3/23/2007 9:44:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>>> randy at 27beverly.com writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The following email was sent to the CCIP members (of which I am
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> representing INC). It regards the dirt streets in Durham that will
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> improved with the 2005 bond money. The following is a copy and paste
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> her email to us:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The following street segments will be paved with those funds (plus
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> funding for water & sewer improvements and sidewalks).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beebe Road
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Belgreen Road
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Boone Street
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Caltalpa Drive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Castlerock Drive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chalk Level Road
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chicago Street
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dial Drive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Edgerton Drive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obie Drive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roane Street
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wynne Road"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RWP
>>>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INC-list mailing list
>>>>>> INC-list at rtpnet.org
>>>>>> http://lists.deltaforce.net/mailman/listinfo/inc-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ************************************** AOL now offers free email to
>>>>>> everyone.
>>>>>> Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ====================================================================
>>>>> This e-mail, and any attachments to it, contains PRIVILEGED AND
>>>>> CONFIDENTIAL information intended only for the use of the
>>>>> addressee(s)
>>>>> or entity named on the e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient
>>>>> of
>>>>> this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
>>>>> to
>>>>> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading,
>>>>> dissemination or copying of this e-mail in error is strictly
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>> If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please
>>>>> notify
>>>>> me by telephone (919-489-0576) or by electronic mail to the sender
>>>>> of
>>>>> this email, RW Pickle (pickle at patriot.net) immediately.
>>>>> =====================================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INC-list mailing list
>>>>> INC-list at rtpnet.org
>>>>> http://lists.deltaforce.net/mailman/listinfo/inc-list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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