[Durham INC] [C+H Neighborhood] Copper Theft
RW Pickle
randy at 27beverly.com
Fri Mar 13 03:10:06 EDT 2009
Colin is right, I was talking steel. It remains the highest recycled metal
by volume in the world. A TL (truck load) of copper starts at 40,000
pounds. If you add up ALL of the copper coils and pipes stolen locally it
wouldn't even come close to that weight. But if you throw a big number out
there as bait, maybe everyone will just read it and believe it's a bigger
problem than it really is. That is just not the case...
On copper prices and volumes being recycled, metalprices.com summed up the
now low market price for copper this way:
"Metalprices.com Copper Scrap Commentary updated: 27 FEB 2009
The USA scrap copper business has deteriorated even further since January
Processors are reporting the volume of incoming material has been reduced
by as much as 70%. Industrial production of copper bearing products in the
USA continues to shrink. Every week new announcements about production
cutbacks and factory layoffs appear in the press. At the same time there
is very little obsolete copper scrap being purchased "over the scale"
because most of it was recycled in 2007 and 2008 when copper prices were
at historical highs."
About the only market left for scrap copper is overseas. And processors
are reluctant to ship it that far due to any number of issues. So the
price for scrap copper will continue to decline and so will the theft of
it. And as I stated earlier, at least in District 3, there were no thefts
reported last month. You have Hope Valley, Forest Hills, Duke Forest,
Morehead Hills, and any number of other large homes over here in District
3 with many of them having 2-3 even 4 units for cooling (because of the
larger homes). So why wouldn't theft be even better in District 3
neighborhoods with so many more units to steal from? It's all about the
neighborhoods and neighbors who look out for their hood. It's about
stabilized neighborhoods; not neighborhoods are being gentrified.
I'll take the time to find out from other Districts in the coming days
just so that you can see that this is not a wide-spread-current problem.
As I said, the Commander in District 3 didn't recall it even being
mentioned at the last joint meeting of all the District (5 of them) heads.
It may be isolated to Cleavland-Holloway, in which case setting up a
Neighborhood Watch and reporting theft to the DPD would help. And what
this amounts to is a crime issue that is victim-less (with insurance
covering the loss). As far as premiums going up across the town or nation
because of some copper theft in Cleavland-Holloway, that's not real. Think
about Katrina and the devastation with that storm. That's what causes
premiums to go up. Not isolated theft of copper in Durham, NC.
With the prices of copper falling, with the ring captured that was
responsible for most of the copper theft last year, and with at least one
District reporting no theft, it's hard to see that there is much of an
issue. Sure it may still happen, but cars are stolen all across this
community and crushed every day. Why not tackle junk yards? People lose
their transportation, getting to work becomes an issue. Life in general
changes for them. Someone steals a copper coil from an abandoned property
HVAC unit, the owner get a whole new unit (even if it wasn't working in
the first place). That's what I said earlier, some of it may even be
planned theft. I'd call it insurance fraud...
People have to be prudent in their actions. Allowing this theft to
continue, if by accident or by plan, is what is keeping this subject
alive. Protecting units when they are installed with the steel cages you
see in these neighborhoods is a far better way to prevent theft. That's
being prudent. You make it easy for people to steal whatever, they will.
Now whose fault should that be?
Has INC decided it is now going to tackle crime because of the success of
the PAC's? Five times the number of people are regularly at their
respective PAC meetings; many more than INC has had in the last few years.
Why? Because people care about their neighborhoods. Why is INC now
tackling crime issues? It looks like it has become popular judging by the
attendance at the PAC meetings. I think this direction is far removed from
where INC should be heading. There are a lot of other issues INC could be
working on that do not deal with crime and would benefit the entire
community.
Is it the goal to jail the "Cleavland-Holloway Mob"? Or can't INC find any
other pressing issues to tackle that would benefit the entire community?
This is a neighborhood issue, not something INC regularly gets involved in
any more than to steer the neighborhood in the right direction. Crime in a
neighborhood, the last time I looked, is a matter for the Police. And
there are already laws on the books which make theft illegal (if
individuals do not care enough to protect their own valuables). Without
the help of the neighbors in a hood, crime will continue. INC can do
nothing about that. Just because a neighborhood pays the $25 to be a
member shouldn't mean that it can drag INC down paths it has no business
going. We once said that INC built better neighborhoods. You have to have
the neighbors in the hood who want it better first. Just because Ken
bought a cheap house in a bad neighborhood and wants to make it a better
neighborhood, doesn't mean INC is the vehicle for doing that. And it seems
unfair to every member hood of INC to place it at that level. If this were
an altruistic thought process, it would be different. But the newest
neighbors of Cleavland-Holloway are motivated by cheap priced houses that
one day (and it's already happening) can be flipped for a profit. It's
like putting a square peg in a round hole; it's just not an easy task to
accomplish. There are many other issues that can be tackled and dealt with
that will benefit neighborhoods across the whole City/County. This is not
one of them...
Sorry for the length of this, but I am just getting tired of seeing INC
head in directions which are only self-serving to those taking it that
way. This is just another example...
RWP
27 Beverly
>
>
> This might be getting out of hand. Randy said at one point it's an
> individual issue, and even there the impact wasn't great because of
> insurance... and
> that INC shouldn't be involved in individual issues.
>
> Some very good, although unrelated, points are being buried here under a
> lot
> of garbage.
>
> I've been a proponent for years of P2P (I've always known it as P2C, the
> same real time access to public information, and available to Citizens as
> well
> as Police instantly), a cheap (relatively speaking) software upgrade, if I
> understand it correctly.
>
> Also the Bottle Bill, I grew up in a 5c deposit state, and can attest to
> the
> litter it eliminates.
>
> But the subject is copper theft and when someone's home is ravaged, it can
> have serious effects on the neighborhood. It's not just A/C units, it's
> the
> copper plumbing, and the flooding that often results, all combined it can
> quickly turn a house from being renovated and a contributing part of the
> neighborhood, into a boarded up home that is a detracting influence on the
> neighborhood. This is especially true in the rapidly improving
> neighborhoods near
> downtown such as the Cleveland Holloway Neighborhood, which is a dues
> paying member
> of INC, and has every right to bring a proposed resolution.
>
> I think anything that turns the American dream into a nightmare is
> neighborhood business. Would like to watch Randy explain to the couple
> who's home is
> severely damaged, that it's covered by insurance. And who do you think
> covers
> that loss via premiums in the long run?
>
> Contrary to Randy's contention that copper theft is no longer a problem,
> the
> fact that a member neighborhood has brought forth a resolution to address
> it, is proof enough it's worth addressing.
>
> So let's get back to the resolution at hand.... here it is again as a
> reminder.
>
> Bill Anderson
>
>> Whereas, the current laws respecting the theft of copper, including
>> the latest revisions passed by the North Carolina General Assembly in
>> _____, have not been successful in stemming the tide of copper theft;
>> and
>>
>> Whereas, though the economic downturn has decreased the price of
>> copper, the magnitude of the problem is only increasing, and the
>> injury done to the community is substantial; and
>>
>> Whereas, the State of North Carolina and the several counties and
>> municipalities are facing an extreme budget shortfall, and that such a
>> shortfall is not helped by the fact that metal recyclers do not report
>> metal sales to the taxing authority, and this results in a tremendous
>> amount of untaxed economic activity;
>>
>> IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED that the Durham InterNeighborhood Council
>> express the sense of the neighborhoods to the Durham Elected Officials
>> and the Durham State Delegation that copper theft remains a problem
>> and that the state should look into alternatives which cause all metal
>> transactions to be reported to the Revenue Office, linked with a valid
>> tax id number of the metal seller, for all transactions above $10.00.
>
> ===================================================================
> In a message dated 3/12/2009 11:25:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> crc128 at gmail.com writes:
>
> Randy:
>
> Regarding your claim that my figures are in error, you misrepresent
> the issue. This discussion is about copper, not steel.
>
> The point I made about the value of a container was for a container of
> copper, not the steel and paper you reference. Indeed, scrap steel is
> very low in price, but, had you bothered to look at the current spot
> prices, you'd find that scrap copper is worth about $1 per pound.
> Yes, steel is only worth a few dollars a ton. That's why no one takes
> the steel frame of the A/C unit - only the copper coils.
>
> Regarding the impact of tax issues on neighborhoods, I remind you that
> tax evasion played a major part bringing down the mob, which helped
> save whole cities from the grip of crime. This is merely a tool,
> which, if employed properly, has been used successfully to stem the
> tide of crime in the past. This has been brought up since the theft of
> copper has been a huge problem in East Durham, and this is a way to
> reduce that problem, without impact on law-abiding citizens. It helps
> the state to collect money that it is already owed, and it pays for
> itself, keeping more money in our budgets for other neighborhood
> issues.
>
> That is why it is a neighborhood issue.
>
> -crc
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:26 PM, RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com> wrote:
>> Let me use Maine as an example since I am more familuar with some
>> system
>> that actually works.
>>
>> On the side of each drink container you will find States listed where a
>> fee is paid at point-of-sale. The legislation that created the
>> returnable
>> container fee was called the Bottle Bill. In Maine, that fee ($.05) is
>> tacked on to ever container sold. You even see the States who support
>> this
>> recycling effort listed on containers here (where we have yet to pass a
>> bottle bill). The stores collect the $.05 and pass it along to the
>> State.
>> In turn, the State repays recycling centers (independently owned
>> bussinesses) to collect the empty used containers. These collection
>> centers pay individuals/groups the $.05 that was paid at
>> point-of-purchase
>> when they are returned. In return for their service, the State pays the
>> collection centers $.02 + some percentage (this was the last time I
>> recall
>> what it amounted to being) for recycling the containers. It's
>> recycling
>> and there is no tax. Tax on the goods are paid when initially sold, but
>> no
>> tax is collected on the recycling (except for income earned through
>> working at a recycling center). Once these recycled metals/plastics are
>> melted down and fabricated into something else, the cycle starts over.
>> Hence re-cycle. The problem all of this solved was litter. Now the
>> roadsides have no containers on them because they are all worth $.05 to
>> anyone who returns them. And any tax collected would be marginal
>> compared
>> to the benefit of lack of container litter.
>>
>> In our business, we recycled paper. Not your typical newspaper or
>> cardboard; large rolls of manufactured paper that was the raw materials
>> for napkins, toilet paper or paper towels. We had contracts to buy all
>> the
>> waste paper made by the mills. These lage rolls weighed from 500-800
>> pounds each. We bought them initially for $.0025 a pound. Once
>> recycled,
>> we sold them for $.99 a pound. We didn't pay tax on the initial
>> purchase,
>> but colllected tax on the sell of remanufactured goods. We also payed
>> income tax on those who worked for us.
>>
>> Tax, collection and avoidance is not some place INC needs to be. It
>> really
>> does not affect neighborhoods in the least. You want to deal in
>> taxation
>> issues, do it with government at that level. I totally disagree that
>> recycling should be taxed; income or otherwise. It will do nothing to
>> improve any neighborhood in Durham (unless it is encouraged). There is
>> currently no incentive for people to recycle although we have worthless
>> City ordinances that maintain it is against the law. Adding more
>> disincentives will do nothing to help recycling efforts.
>>
>> Your figure on the value of a container of scrap is incorrect. Here's
>> some
>> info that will help you out:
>>
>> United States Scrap Prices Continue to Fall
>>
>> Posted on March 10th, 2009 by admin
>> U.S. scrap prices continue to fall since early February.
>>
>> During the first week of March, the U.S. scrap prices dropped further
>> by
>> US$25~29/ton. Also seeing a price decline was U.S. busheling scrap
>> price
>> which reached US$197~207/ton as well as shredded steel scrap prices
>> which
>> hit US$187~197/ton. Meanwhile H1 scrap was priced at US$162~172/ton.
>>
>> It is said that U.S. scrap demand will remain weak due to the economic
>> crisis. U.S. domestic mills have refused to purchase materials.
>>
>> As for the supply, the scrap consumption from motor vehicles, household
>> appliances, etc. are gradually reducing.
>> In addition, the U.S. scrap export prices also continued to go down.
>>
>> Source: www.yieh.com
>>
>> If you just do the math relative to the information above, you'll see
>> how
>> your statement would be impossible. Trucks would not be able to move it
>> nor containers hold that much volume or weight.
>>
>> We filled up the largest container we could last year and had it hauled
>> to
>> Raleigh Scrap Metal. The stuff was easily stacked so we were able to
>> really fill it up. After the container rental and transport fee, we had
>> a
>> net of less than $10. Granted, disposal at the transfer station would
>> have
>> cost a great deal and recycling saved a bundle, but there's not a lot
>> of
>> margin in the scrap business for anyone to get rich...
>>
>> Let's scrap this idea and get on with something that will make a
>> difference regionally. Ask the Legislative Delegation to unify criminal
>> information so it's accessable by all law enforcement regionally. This
>> will help make all of our communities safer. Beating on recyling is
>> just
>> not green...
>>
>> RWP
>> 27 Beverly
>>
>>> Your double-taxation point is a red herring. If taxation worked that
>>> way, then retailers like WalMart wouldn't have to pay income tax, as
>>> their income comes from the sale of goods which are taxed by sales tax
>>> (at the point of final sale), and their workers all pay income tax.
>>> Indeed, anyone who produces anything wouldn't have to pay tax, since
>>> only raw materials can be obtained without sales tax (or an
>>> exemption).
>>>
>>> Your point is incorrect since the income tax is a tax on income and
>>> labor, not on the goods themselves.
>>>
>>> And we're not talking about chump change, we're talking about hundreds
>>> of thousands of dollars. A single container (40') can hold about 32
>>> tons. At today's scrap rates, each container will cost a recycler
>>> about $75,000 to fill. That's a lot of nickles and dimes of tax
>>> evasion that the state is leaving on the table.
>>>
>>> -crc
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:28 PM, RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Tax on recycled items is double taxation because the tax was
>>>> paid/collected when sold (sales tax). It's true for HVAC copper just
>>>> as
>>>> it
>>>> is with aluminum soda cans. It's true it would be income (if taxed)
>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>> party selling it, but if it's that big of a deal, the re-cycler has
>>>> that
>>>> info already in their paperwork and could provide it to any authority
>>>> that
>>>> wishes to chase the nickels and dimes. It's not a loop hole, it's
>>>> double
>>>> taxation and may even thwart recycling efforts.
>>>>
>>>> Income from the sell of stolen copper should be small at best. There
>>>> are
>>>> many bigger fish to fry...
>>>>
>>>> RWP
>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>
>>>>> Randy,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you examine it closely, it isn't a tax on recycling, it is a tax
>>>>> on
>>>>> income, income which is currently evading tax illegally. It is
>>>>> currently the responsibility of the income receiver to declare it,
>>>>> however it is only the law-abiding (like you) who follow the rules
>>>>> and
>>>>> properly declare their income. This simply causes the seller to
>>>>> formally recognize their income - just like the rest of us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing special here, it looks like it's just closing a loophole
>>>>> which
>>>>> allows illegal activity to flourish, and raising funds for the state
>>>>> in the process.
>>>>>
>>>>> -crc
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:27 PM, RW Pickle <randy at 27beverly.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> So now, even though many recycling efforts have failed, we want to
>>>>>> further
>>>>>> "tax" the recycling industry? I understand the desire of this, but
>>>>>> recycling should be rewarded and not penalized. And adding to the
>>>>>> burden
>>>>>> is not the way to do this. You already have to have a valid photo
>>>>>> ID
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> recycle metals (at valid recycling operations) and personal
>>>>>> information
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> gathered in that process. What's the purpose of the legislation
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> thieves can just haul their booty to VA (like the manhole cover
>>>>>> thefts
>>>>>> that occurred last year)? These are thefts of personal property
>>>>>> (from
>>>>>> private property typically) and do not effect the common nature of
>>>>>> city-wide neighborhoods. Home owners insurance generally covers the
>>>>>> theft
>>>>>> so there is no public loss. It's not a neighborhood issue when
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> individuals are the ones involved... And although I'll suggest this
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> no supporting evidence, it may be that the individual property
>>>>>> owners
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> involved in the thefts themselves. It would be a lot cheaper to pay
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> insurance premiums than replace a HVAC system in a property for
>>>>>> sell.
>>>>>> Not
>>>>>> may homes have ever had the copper removed while occupied...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In conversations just now with the Captain of District 3, he said
>>>>>> copper
>>>>>> theft has almost disappeared. He didn't recall one in the last 30
>>>>>> days.
>>>>>> And he didn't recall it being an issue across the City when the
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>> Police force leadership met last. There are more car thefts across
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> City than copper thefts. And this is every day... So are junk
>>>>>> yards
>>>>>> next?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is another "feel good" issue that is best left out of our
>>>>>> Legislative
>>>>>> Delegation's hands. I'll mention this again, a far better issue for
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> to take forward is a communication/database system where all local
>>>>>> law
>>>>>> enforcement can find out information. As an example, Durham County
>>>>>> Sheriff's Department does not have access to the P2P system that
>>>>>> Durham
>>>>>> City Police uses. And as you spread out across our region, you have
>>>>>> Orange, Wake, Person, etc. that do not have the same access of
>>>>>> information
>>>>>> sharing. The week before Eve Carson was shot, those involved were
>>>>>> over
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Orange County (they didn't live there) and were stopped for another
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>> Had Orange County been able to see they were on probation in
>>>>>> Durham,
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> would have been in jail and not involved in the Carson death. To
>>>>>> me,
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is one of the most pressing law enforcement issues that would make
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> our streets safer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Build a metal box around your HVAC ststem to protect it from theft
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> an issue, don't ask our Legislative Delegation to waste time on
>>>>>> personal
>>>>>> issues...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RWP
>>>>>> 27 Beverly
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think this is an excellent resolution. In addition to being a
>>>>>>> neighborhood
>>>>>>> issue, it is also a crime issue. Therefor (in my opinion) it
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> endorsed by all five of Durham's Partners Against Crime
>>>>>>> organizations,
>>>>>>> Durham
>>>>>>> Businesses Against Crime, and InterNeighborhood Council.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since I'm not subscribed to PAC 1, 3, 4, & 5, perhaps someone
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>> this suggestion to the others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill Anderson
>>>>>>> PAC2
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a message dated 3/12/2009 12:02:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>>>>> Ken at KenGasch.com writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please take a gander at resolution below. Authored by Colin
>>>>>>> Crossman
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> me..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would like for Cleveland-Holloway to sponsor. (i.e. place in
>>>>>>> hopper
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> INC)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comments? Questions? Go, no-Go?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken Gasch
>>>>>>> ********************************************************************
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, the current laws respecting the theft of copper,
>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>> the latest revisions passed by the North Carolina General
>>>>>>> Assembly
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> _____, have not been successful in stemming the tide of copper
>>>>>>> theft;
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, though the economic downturn has decreased the price of
>>>>>>> copper, the magnitude of the problem is only increasing, and the
>>>>>>> injury done to the community is substantial; and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, the State of North Carolina and the several counties
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> municipalities are facing an extreme budget shortfall, and that
>>>>>>> such a
>>>>>>> shortfall is not helped by the fact that metal recyclers do not
>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>> metal sales to the taxing authority, and this results in a
>>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>>> amount of untaxed economic activity;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED that the Durham InterNeighborhood Council
>>>>>>> express the sense of the neighborhoods to the Durham Elected
>>>>>>> Officials
>>>>>>> and the Durham State Delegation that copper theft remains a
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>> and that the state should look into alternatives which cause all
>>>>>>> metal
>>>>>>> transactions to be reported to the Revenue Office, linked with a
>>>>>>> valid
>>>>>>> tax id number of the metal seller, for all transactions above
>>>>>>> $10.00.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>> Google
>>>>>>> Groups
>>>>>>> "Cleveland Holloway Neighborhood" group.
>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>> ClevelandHollowayNeighborhood at googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>>> ClevelandHollowayNeighborhood+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/ClevelandHollowayNeighborhood?hl=en
>>>>>>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>> easy
>>>>>>> steps!
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> =====================================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Durham INC Mailing List
>>>>>> list at durham-inc.org
>
>>>>>> http://www.durham-inc.org/list.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Crossman Properties, LLC
>>>>> 762 Ninth St #591
>>>>> Durham, NC 27705
>>>>> www.CrossmanProperties.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ====================================================================
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>>
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