[Durham INC] copper theft vs. auto theft as a reported crime

[RW Pickle]

"the statistics you share are absolutely irrelevant"

That hardly seems the case. The conversation (in case it was missed) was
about copper and auto theft and these are reported copper and auto thefts
as collected by the Durham Police Department. Maybe some didn't get
reported (of either cars or copper), but they are the only real facts you
have been presented with so far. I didn't make the information up. They
are real and not irrelevant. And since they were not inferred, they are
not statistics; they are facts.

I had to give them a time frame to frame this question in, so I just chose
this year (2009). Should anyone want to look at a different time frame, I
suggest you do as I did, contact the Police Department and ask them. Had I
thought that any other given time frame would have been more relevant
(since this topic and doing something about it has just only recently
surfaced at INC), I would have chosen it. It's being talked about now, so
I wanted to look at now. What has happened in the past or might happen in
the future are just other frames within which to discuss this matter. And
currently, there is not very much of a problem. It has nothing to do with
my ac unit or car never having been stolen or not. It's not about me, it's
about the facts of the issue. I just didn't think it was that big of an
issue and the facts bear that out. Was it once, last year when copper
reached an all-time high? There may have been more theft of copper then,
but I'd bet car theft was up as well. Is all of the copper that was
removed now replaced just waiting for removal again? I'd suggest it has
been replaced and secured. That's just prudent. If it were from an
abandoned home or business, perhaps not.

You are correct in that car theft is easier to track because it has it's
own category in the UCR. But to start splitting up the car as a whole into
a battery, converter, etc. is just not relevant. I was talking about car
theft, not car part theft. Some may even be stolen to repair the car of
the thief. That is why it took time to sort through the information for
copper theft. It was listed in several different categories as you
suggest. But both numbers represent reported cases.

And just as you say, copper prices are down, so are all other metal prices
like the steel in cars. So the actual reported thefts (which are real)
should be relative to each other; in good times and bad. That doesn't
diminish the fact that there has always been more car theft than copper
theft. And as I have mentioned in the past, it's an insured loss; from the
church and elderly lady living in a house as you mention. So no harm no
foul because insurance covers the loss. We've heard it causes insurance
rates to go up, but I'd hope you could see through that emotional plea.
This is generally not the case for stolen cars. I recall a rash of manhole
and catch basin lids being stolen last year. We the tax payer funded their
replacement... And I believe they caught the thieves even though it was
disposed in VA. Regardless of what it was that was stolen, it generally
ended up as scrap somewhere.

I'm sure copper theft is not a local phenomenon and is all across the
country to some degree. But I wasn't talking (and the conversation wasn't
directed toward) a national problem. I suggested it was a problem in
certain areas of our City, not across the USA in some other city. I have
no idea what the national figures are as they relate to car and copper
theft. But if Durham is a picture of the problem nationally, and the
figures represent (now I'm talking statistics and not facts) it
proportionally, then car theft is a huge issue. It dwarfs copper theft.

You have people who bring different perspectives to any table. Some come
with emotional appeals, some come with known facts and yet others come
with rhetoric. Being a scientist, I'll always go with the verifiable
facts. Rhetoric and emotions always just cloud any issue. The facts do not
lie, no matter how you want to spin it. At least I did the homework. You
guys can spin the facts any way you want...

But originally, for me, this wasn't so much about copper or auto theft and
that got lost somewhere. But as I said I would, I found out how they
shaped up against each other. This was more about asking our Legislative
Delelegation about taking something to do about copper theft to Raleigh.
That to me was a waste when there are so many more important things they
can take to Raleigh that will make a difference for everyone. The one I
mentioned was a uniform information system where by all law enforcement
can access the same information. Had that been in place, perhaps the
Orange County law enforcement (who had Atwater; who is charged with
killing Eve Carson the UNC student body president and Mohamed Utto a Duke
grad student) would have kept him in custody a week before the Carson
murder took place. But they didn't have access to the information in
Durham... It's things like this that the Delegation needs to put forth in
Raleigh, not some scrap copper tax reporting idea. That is just seems so
narrow minded when a much larger problem seems like the scrapping out of
cars. At least the facts bear that out...

RWP
27 Beverly


> You know that old saying "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned
> lies,
> and statistics."   The thesis you propose in this message is a fine
> illustration that without the proper frame of reference the statistics you
> share are absolutely irrelevant.   The problem is not only copper;
> depending on market pricing at any given time steel, aluminum, and other
> metals will fetch a pretty penny.  The salvage price of copper and other
> metals has been down for the 1st 3 months of 2009 when compared to this
> past
> summer when the price of copper was sky high.   Thus, it is no surprise at
> all that there would not be many reported cases of copper theft in the
> very
> brief window of time that you refer to.
>
> Secondly, I take issue with the presumption that all copper thefts are, or
> even could be, accurately tracked as such.   In the vast majority of cases
> that I have seen the incidents have been coded as a Breaking & Entering,
> Vandalism, Trespassing, Theft by taking, or some other litany of charges.
> Auto theft however is quite clearly a separately tracked category.
>
> While I agree that a car theft could be very detrimental to some victims,
> have you ever stopped to think of the impact on an elderly person or a
> family is their A/C is rendered useless by some thief looking to make a
> quick buck?   You incorrectly assume that the problem is only applicable
> to
> vacant properties.  I am aware of several businesses and churches that
> have
> been hit repeatedly.
>
> You are also apparently oblivious to the fact that the cost of salvage
> items
> is directly linked to the increase in car thefts.   Take the time to stop
> making incorrect assumptions and you might learn that the theft of
> catalytic
> converters is still increasing, car batteries can be sold for chump change
> right alongside copper, and there are several brazen thieves who will
> steal
> an old heavy car merely to take it to the scrap yard for the metal costs.
>
> Finally you are categorically incorrect that copper theft is a problem
> isolated to just certain neighborhoods.   It is in fact a nationwide
> problem.   I'll include just a few links just to make my point.
>
> California http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/us/31copper.html
> Delaware
> http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080415/NEWS01/804
> 150348
> Zambia  http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-11359600.html
> Verizon telephone lines in Durham
> http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2479771/
> Cary  http://www.carynews.com/news/public_safety/story/11579.html
> Salvation Army in Raleigh  http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1630976/
>
> Randy, I hope that just because the problem has not impacted you directly
> as
> of yet, that you will refrain from diminishing the impact that it has had
> on
> numerous other victims.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Helena
> Old North Durham
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Helena
> 919-868-6208
> hcragg at earthlink.net
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: inc-list-bounces at rtpnet.org
>> [mailto:inc-list-bounces at rtpnet.org] On Behalf Of RW Pickle
>> Sent: 03/25/2009 6:29 PM
>> To: inc-list at durhaminc.org
>> Subject: [Durham INC] copper theft vs. auto theft as a reported crime
>>
>> As promised, but a little longer than anticipated because I'm
>> not the one providing the information, here is a breakdown of
>> car theft relative to copper theft. As the statistics did
>> bear out, copper theft is minimal compared to car theft in
>> the time frame I asked for (from 2009 forward).
>> This information was provided by The Durham Police Department
>> Crime Statistics Division and I'd like to publicly thank them
>> for their work on this.
>>
>> "For the year 2009, as of 3/18/09, there were a total of 36
>> incidents where there was a theft of copper and 143 motor
>> vehicle thefts."
>>
>> I did not get the breakdown to know if it was copper from ac
>> units, pipes under a house, or copper wire. Nor did it break
>> it down to where you could determine if it was an abandoned
>> house, occupied house, from a job site or a work trailer. It
>> was a total report of coper theft. So it could have come from
>> anywhere; suggesting it all was not residential related.
>>
>> So instead of focusing on copper, perhaps the focus should be
>> on vehicles.
>> When a person loses the use of their vehicle, any number of
>> economic and social problems begin to occur. They have no way
>> to get to work, church, get groceries or medical attention.
>> If there are kids, this is a whole other set of problems. If
>> it is the only car a family has, well...
>> regardless, their freedom of getting around has been taken
>> away. When someone steals some copper from the ac unit of an
>> abandoned property (or anywhere on residential or commercial
>> property), that effects only the property owner. And I said
>> earlier, insurance covers the theft. Most of the cars that
>> are stolen do not have comprehensive auto insurance so there
>> is no insurance claim to help that individual.
>>
>> So just because there is this urgent unsubstantiated need for
>> thinking something needs to be done, statistics show that
>> there really isn't that much of it actually happening (at
>> least compared to cars which bring more money when sold for
>> scrap). And if we looked at it relative to where it is
>> happening, we would probably find it is typically isolated to
>> a general radius around specific neighborhoods. Cars, on the
>> other hand, seem to disappear all across town.
>>
>> RWP
>> 27 Beverly
>>
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>


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