[Durham INC] why South Durham is what is getting developed

[RW Pickle]

Sure. I think the trip can be made in less than 12 minutes with stops. The
stops in Charlotte were fast; not 90 seconds. The need for a great deal of
them seems unnecessary since all this would need to be planned. And the
thoughts behind this are that there is very little existing infrastructure
to connect with except the bus system. So it's a planning event from the
get-go. And like any addition/change (short of adding additional travel
lanes) that is made in our region relative to additional transit service,
it really won't change the existing traffic that much. Like Charlotte,
it'll just help it from getting worse.

Randy Pickle

> Randy - your first email said:
>
> "But one great thing that seems untapped about North Durham is there is
> an abandonedrailspur that runs to Roxboro that would make the first
> great connection ofthat area to downtown by high-speed rail. And all the
> density you couldwant to build around it is there for the building
> because most of thatland is undeveloped. It would change Durham if this
> plan was executed.Thegeographic density base would shift outside of the
> City to an area thatcould be planned. They'd say... "you can even see
> Durham from out hereona clear day..." as the ride the high-speed rail
> into Durham in 12minutesfrom Roxboro."
>
> At about 27 miles between the two downtowns, that's an implied average
> speed of nearly 125 mph, or near the lower bound of what we usually
> think of as high speed rail. You want high density development along the
> corridor? That's at least 6 stops along the route. Transit oriented
> development with walkable communities and car-free, or at least not
> automobile centric neighborhoods? Now you're looking at a stop every 2.5
> - 3 miles.
>
> Still think you can make that commute in 12 minutes? Even if you keep
> boarding time to 90 seconds per stop, 8 stops gets you 12 minutes of
> idle time already.
>
> We could certainly invest several hundred million dollars bringing the
> "unused rail corridor" between Durham and Roxboro up to contemporary HSR
> standards. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. There's only one way to
> find out.
>
> But it seems to me that if the desired outcome is transit oriented
> development heading north of the city, with a goal of maintaining or
> even reducing vehicular traffic volumes on our existing roadways while
> accommodating a 30% or 40% increase in population, we could accomplish
> those ends by putting a more community scaled transit system based on
> streetcars along existing corridors that serve relatively
> under-developed sections of the city. Unless the pawn and used tire shop
> lobby is stronger than i think, there's a lot of room for better
> development along Roxboro Rd. from I-85 to the city line, or along east
> Main St. out to Miami Blvd.
>
> In fact, except for people who might own parcels of that undeveloped
> land along the rail corridor, i can't think of anyone who would benefit
> from driving development away from existing infrastructure. It's not
> like we need any additional half empty strip malls surrounded by acres
> of unused parking lots along north Roxboro Rd. or any other part of the
> city
>
> Barry Ragin
>
>
> On 2/19/11 12:34 AM, RW Pickle wrote:
>> I guess you were seeing a 225MPH bullet train running the route. Those
>> speeds are unrealistic in short distances. But current delivery speeds
>> for
>> town are less than 18MPH with current transit. Twice that speed would be
>> high speed. 0-60 in electric rail transit is less than a 10 second
>> trip...
>>
>> I guess you have to get outside of downtown Durham in order to see what
>> happens every evening as this City ends its work day. Go to Northern
>> High
>> School and sit in the parking lot and watch the stream of traffic
>> heading
>> toward Roxboro. Go to the new pedestrian bridge over 147 and look toward
>> Raleigh.  It doesn't take long to realize that at the end of the work
>> day,
>> much of "Durham day" leaves to go home elsewhere. Same thing happens
>> every
>> morning as they head into work. Add those who come through Durham to get
>> to RTP and it just starts to add up.
>>
>> If you use the figures that regularly get used by folks who plan, our
>> region stands to grow by more than a million people in the next 9 years.
>> Current population of Durham is around 225,000 I believe. If you think
>> anything shy of new development is going to fit these folks in you'll be
>> wondering why we didn't plan this whole thought process better. It would
>> be wrong to think that development will not happen out of necessity if
>> you
>> just think Durham might see only 10% of that growth. Last I heard,
>> there's
>> only a 4 month housing stock supply available at the current growth
>> rate.
>> And we keep showing up in every list under the sun as being a great
>> place
>> to be. So it's a no brainer that it's going to happen. If we plan it,
>> it'll always work out better. Not everyone wants to live downtown. But
>> 180,000+ folks who work for Duke (as an example) do have to come to work
>> every day. And if we can cut out some of the traffic, it'll just make
>> room
>> for all those other folks who are coming.
>>
>> With rail, you always end up talking about population density around it.
>> With planned development along an existing rail corridor (nothing new
>> has
>> to be added or built to utilize the Roxboro line), it all works better.
>> A
>> couple of years ago a group of us from Durham went to Charlotte to
>> meet/talk to the folks who were successful in getting a light rail
>> system
>> going there. Working with the Feds, it was determined that it would be
>> utilized at the capacity it was designed for around 2020. A year later
>> after opening, it was already at capacity! The 10,000 car parking garage
>> built at the beginning of the rail line, full every day. We parked the
>> bus
>> we all went on there and rode the train in ourselves. It was fast,
>> quiet,
>> made planned stops at various places that seemed less than 20 seconds
>> each, and allowed us to miss all the downtown traffic that they have
>> there. The poorest part of town that it ran through was under siege by
>> developers building density. And today, Charlotte has plans to build an
>> entire "spider web" of rail to aid in the overcrowding of the roads. We
>> were told it all wouldn't change the problems they have today and
>> traffic
>> would not seem any better, it would just keep it from getting worse as
>> Charlotte grows.
>>
>> Cities, Durham is no exception, generally started years ago around a
>> rail
>> system. And they grew out. And that the thoughts behind the Roxboro
>> line.
>> It's just not my thoughts. Many others who regularly deal with these
>> issues think the same thing. It's far cheaper to utilize existing than
>> to
>> add anything new. Adding always adds up to more...
>>
>> RWP
>>
>>> "But one great thing that seems untapped about North Durham is there is
>>> an abandoned rail spur that runs to Roxboro that would make the first
>>> great connection of that area to downtown by high-speed rail."
>>>
>>> High speed rail from Roxboro to downtown? It's less than 30 miles
>>> between the town of Roxboro and downtown. You don't need high speed
>>> rail
>>> to cover that distance. If there were any stops on the line (which, to
>>> be honest, there would need to be to get any use out of a transit line
>>> along that route), you'd never even come close to reaching top speed.
>>>
>>> That's not what's going to drive development in North Durham.
>>>
>>> It would be much more cost efficient, and would move more people, to
>>> run
>>> a streetcar system up and down Roxboro St. between Infinity Road and
>>> the
>>> DPAC/Ballpark district first. Then run two perpendicular lines along
>>> Main St. and Club Blvd. Then add a 4th line between Duke Hospital and
>>> Latta Road. Put a hub at Club and Roxboro, and a terminal at the Kroger
>>> on Hillsborough Road to tie into the Main St. line and an eventual
>>> light
>>> rail line to Chapel Hill.
>>>
>>> Build a transportation infrastructure within the existing city, and
>>> you'd be surprised how many more people could live here without having
>>> to expand into the sensitive watershed areas. Or turn existing towns
>>> into bedroom suburbs.
>>>
>>> There are many, many reasons why the sprawl model of development has
>>> taken root in south Durham or much of Wake County. The existence of a
>>> WWTP is only one.
>>>
>>> Barry Ragin
>>>
>>> On 2/17/11 7:42 PM, RW Pickle wrote:
>>>> I've been meaning to write this for some time in a effort to sort of
>>>> put
>>>> a
>>>> bigger picture on why South Durham is/has been a hotbed for
>>>> development;
>>>> not just today, but in the last 20+ years. This just didn't happen
>>>> overnight. And it happened long before I arrived here. Because what
>>>> brought me here 30+ years ago was a plan that had already been set in
>>>> motion long before I arrived.
>>>>
>>>> I came here as a field engineer for a construction company out of TN
>>>> that
>>>> was the general contractor for what was then the newest and largest
>>>> waste
>>>> water treatment plant (WWTP) in the region. It is the main WWTP on
>>>> Ferrington Road for Durham. Now is all of this getting a little
>>>> clearer...
>>>>
>>>> With the additional upgrades and expansion to the County's WWTP on
>>>> Hwy.
>>>> 55, most of the treatment capacity of waste water is on this side of
>>>> town.
>>>> Hence, all of the development. Without a treatment plant to tie into,
>>>> you
>>>> can not have density because you have to rely on septic systems. And
>>>> with
>>>> the soils in South Durham being what they are, some land would never
>>>> perk
>>>> to even be allowed to be buildable.
>>>>
>>>> So as we were building this WWTP facility, Cary was just getting
>>>> started.
>>>> Hard to believe it was just a sleepy little crossroads 30 years ago.
>>>> If
>>>> Durham had not built this plant and Cary or Chapel Hill would have
>>>> expanded their services, we may have lost part of Durham to another
>>>> city
>>>> as it annexed areas into it that it served with water and sewer. Water
>>>> isn't much of an issue as long as you have it somewhere because it
>>>> flows
>>>> under pressure. But waste water generally flows downhill by gravity.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, the Little River Resevoir was being built to add water to
>>>> the
>>>> plan. And as it all has unfolded, South Durham has grown. I-40 came
>>>> through. And for the most part, it now borders Chapel Hill and Cary.
>>>>
>>>> So what's next as our visionaries look toward the future? One can only
>>>> think that with everything closing in on 3 of our sides that North
>>>> Durham
>>>> is the next big growth area. And there's plenty of room to grow. But
>>>> they'll need WWTP and water as well as some major roads. But one great
>>>> thing that seems untapped about North Durham is there is an abandoned
>>>> rail
>>>> spur that runs to Roxboro that would make the first great connection
>>>> of
>>>> that area to downtown by high-speed rail. And all the density you
>>>> could
>>>> want to build around it is there for the building because most of that
>>>> land is undeveloped. It would change Durham if this plan was executed.
>>>> The
>>>> geographic density base would shift outside of the City to an area
>>>> that
>>>> could be planned. They'd say... "you can even see Durham from out here
>>>> on
>>>> a clear day..." as the ride the high-speed rail into Durham in 12
>>>> minutes
>>>> from Roxboro.
>>>>
>>>> Someone's already planning our future just like it was planned when I
>>>> arrived he 30+ years ago to build infrastructure. Don't just sit back
>>>> and
>>>> fuss about somethings that are already pretty much predetermined. Get
>>>> involved and write the future because that is what will change Durham.
>>>>
>>>> Randy Pickle
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Durham INC Mailing List
>>>> list at durham-inc.org
>>>> http://www.durham-inc.org/list.html
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
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