[Durham INC] why South Durham is what is getting developed

Mon Feb 21 06:50:24 EST 2011

Unfortunately the support for transit seems to be falling:  http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/11518273/article-Poll-finds-transit-tax-backing-falls-short?instance=homesecondleft
there will be workshops next month on what the train network might look like: 
Wed, Mar 23, 4 - 7 PM | Durham Station Transportation Ctr, 515 W. Pettigrew St., DURHAM.Thu, Mar 24, 4- 7 PM | The Friday Center, 100 Friday Center Drive, CHAPEL HILL.
Information on what they are looking at: http://www.ourtransitfuture.com
REgards, pat

> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 01:09:33 -0500
> From: randy at 27beverly.com
> To: bragin at nc.rr.com
> CC: inc-list at durhaminc.org
> Subject: Re: [Durham INC] why South Durham is what is getting developed
> 
> Sure. I think the trip can be made in less than 12 minutes with stops. The
> stops in Charlotte were fast; not 90 seconds. The need for a great deal of
> them seems unnecessary since all this would need to be planned. And the
> thoughts behind this are that there is very little existing infrastructure
> to connect with except the bus system. So it's a planning event from the
> get-go. And like any addition/change (short of adding additional travel
> lanes) that is made in our region relative to additional transit service,
> it really won't change the existing traffic that much. Like Charlotte,
> it'll just help it from getting worse.
> 
> Randy Pickle
> 
> > Randy - your first email said:
> >
> > "But one great thing that seems untapped about North Durham is there is
> > an abandonedrailspur that runs to Roxboro that would make the first
> > great connection ofthat area to downtown by high-speed rail. And all the
> > density you couldwant to build around it is there for the building
> > because most of thatland is undeveloped. It would change Durham if this
> > plan was executed.Thegeographic density base would shift outside of the
> > City to an area thatcould be planned. They'd say... "you can even see
> > Durham from out hereona clear day..." as the ride the high-speed rail
> > into Durham in 12minutesfrom Roxboro."
> >
> > At about 27 miles between the two downtowns, that's an implied average
> > speed of nearly 125 mph, or near the lower bound of what we usually
> > think of as high speed rail. You want high density development along the
> > corridor? That's at least 6 stops along the route. Transit oriented
> > development with walkable communities and car-free, or at least not
> > automobile centric neighborhoods? Now you're looking at a stop every 2.5
> > - 3 miles.
> >
> > Still think you can make that commute in 12 minutes? Even if you keep
> > boarding time to 90 seconds per stop, 8 stops gets you 12 minutes of
> > idle time already.
> >
> > We could certainly invest several hundred million dollars bringing the
> > "unused rail corridor" between Durham and Roxboro up to contemporary HSR
> > standards. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. There's only one way to
> > find out.
> >
> > But it seems to me that if the desired outcome is transit oriented
> > development heading north of the city, with a goal of maintaining or
> > even reducing vehicular traffic volumes on our existing roadways while
> > accommodating a 30% or 40% increase in population, we could accomplish
> > those ends by putting a more community scaled transit system based on
> > streetcars along existing corridors that serve relatively
> > under-developed sections of the city. Unless the pawn and used tire shop
> > lobby is stronger than i think, there's a lot of room for better
> > development along Roxboro Rd. from I-85 to the city line, or along east
> > Main St. out to Miami Blvd.
> >
> > In fact, except for people who might own parcels of that undeveloped
> > land along the rail corridor, i can't think of anyone who would benefit
> > from driving development away from existing infrastructure. It's not
> > like we need any additional half empty strip malls surrounded by acres
> > of unused parking lots along north Roxboro Rd. or any other part of the
> > city
> >
> > Barry Ragin
> >
> >
> > On 2/19/11 12:34 AM, RW Pickle wrote:
> >> I guess you were seeing a 225MPH bullet train running the route. Those
> >> speeds are unrealistic in short distances. But current delivery speeds
> >> for
> >> town are less than 18MPH with current transit. Twice that speed would be
> >> high speed. 0-60 in electric rail transit is less than a 10 second
> >> trip...
> >>
> >> I guess you have to get outside of downtown Durham in order to see what
> >> happens every evening as this City ends its work day. Go to Northern
> >> High
> >> School and sit in the parking lot and watch the stream of traffic
> >> heading
> >> toward Roxboro. Go to the new pedestrian bridge over 147 and look toward
> >> Raleigh.  It doesn't take long to realize that at the end of the work
> >> day,
> >> much of "Durham day" leaves to go home elsewhere. Same thing happens
> >> every
> >> morning as they head into work. Add those who come through Durham to get
> >> to RTP and it just starts to add up.
> >>
> >> If you use the figures that regularly get used by folks who plan, our
> >> region stands to grow by more than a million people in the next 9 years.
> >> Current population of Durham is around 225,000 I believe. If you think
> >> anything shy of new development is going to fit these folks in you'll be
> >> wondering why we didn't plan this whole thought process better. It would
> >> be wrong to think that development will not happen out of necessity if
> >> you
> >> just think Durham might see only 10% of that growth. Last I heard,
> >> there's
> >> only a 4 month housing stock supply available at the current growth
> >> rate.
> >> And we keep showing up in every list under the sun as being a great
> >> place
> >> to be. So it's a no brainer that it's going to happen. If we plan it,
> >> it'll always work out better. Not everyone wants to live downtown. But
> >> 180,000+ folks who work for Duke (as an example) do have to come to work
> >> every day. And if we can cut out some of the traffic, it'll just make
> >> room
> >> for all those other folks who are coming.
> >>
> >> With rail, you always end up talking about population density around it.
> >> With planned development along an existing rail corridor (nothing new
> >> has
> >> to be added or built to utilize the Roxboro line), it all works better.
> >> A
> >> couple of years ago a group of us from Durham went to Charlotte to
> >> meet/talk to the folks who were successful in getting a light rail
> >> system
> >> going there. Working with the Feds, it was determined that it would be
> >> utilized at the capacity it was designed for around 2020. A year later
> >> after opening, it was already at capacity! The 10,000 car parking garage
> >> built at the beginning of the rail line, full every day. We parked the
> >> bus
> >> we all went on there and rode the train in ourselves. It was fast,
> >> quiet,
> >> made planned stops at various places that seemed less than 20 seconds
> >> each, and allowed us to miss all the downtown traffic that they have
> >> there. The poorest part of town that it ran through was under siege by
> >> developers building density. And today, Charlotte has plans to build an
> >> entire "spider web" of rail to aid in the overcrowding of the roads. We
> >> were told it all wouldn't change the problems they have today and
> >> traffic
> >> would not seem any better, it would just keep it from getting worse as
> >> Charlotte grows.
> >>
> >> Cities, Durham is no exception, generally started years ago around a
> >> rail
> >> system. And they grew out. And that the thoughts behind the Roxboro
> >> line.
> >> It's just not my thoughts. Many others who regularly deal with these
> >> issues think the same thing. It's far cheaper to utilize existing than
> >> to
> >> add anything new. Adding always adds up to more...
> >>
> >> RWP
> >>
> >>> "But one great thing that seems untapped about North Durham is there is
> >>> an abandoned rail spur that runs to Roxboro that would make the first
> >>> great connection of that area to downtown by high-speed rail."
> >>>
> >>> High speed rail from Roxboro to downtown? It's less than 30 miles
> >>> between the town of Roxboro and downtown. You don't need high speed
> >>> rail
> >>> to cover that distance. If there were any stops on the line (which, to
> >>> be honest, there would need to be to get any use out of a transit line
> >>> along that route), you'd never even come close to reaching top speed.
> >>>
> >>> That's not what's going to drive development in North Durham.
> >>>
> >>> It would be much more cost efficient, and would move more people, to
> >>> run
> >>> a streetcar system up and down Roxboro St. between Infinity Road and
> >>> the
> >>> DPAC/Ballpark district first. Then run two perpendicular lines along
> >>> Main St. and Club Blvd. Then add a 4th line between Duke Hospital and
> >>> Latta Road. Put a hub at Club and Roxboro, and a terminal at the Kroger
> >>> on Hillsborough Road to tie into the Main St. line and an eventual
> >>> light
> >>> rail line to Chapel Hill.
> >>>
> >>> Build a transportation infrastructure within the existing city, and
> >>> you'd be surprised how many more people could live here without having
> >>> to expand into the sensitive watershed areas. Or turn existing towns
> >>> into bedroom suburbs.
> >>>
> >>> There are many, many reasons why the sprawl model of development has
> >>> taken root in south Durham or much of Wake County. The existence of a
> >>> WWTP is only one.
> >>>
> >>> Barry Ragin
> >>>
> >>> On 2/17/11 7:42 PM, RW Pickle wrote:
> >>>> I've been meaning to write this for some time in a effort to sort of
> >>>> put
> >>>> a
> >>>> bigger picture on why South Durham is/has been a hotbed for
> >>>> development;
> >>>> not just today, but in the last 20+ years. This just didn't happen
> >>>> overnight. And it happened long before I arrived here. Because what
> >>>> brought me here 30+ years ago was a plan that had already been set in
> >>>> motion long before I arrived.
> >>>>
> >>>> I came here as a field engineer for a construction company out of TN
> >>>> that
> >>>> was the general contractor for what was then the newest and largest
> >>>> waste
> >>>> water treatment plant (WWTP) in the region. It is the main WWTP on
> >>>> Ferrington Road for Durham. Now is all of this getting a little
> >>>> clearer...
> >>>>
> >>>> With the additional upgrades and expansion to the County's WWTP on
> >>>> Hwy.
> >>>> 55, most of the treatment capacity of waste water is on this side of
> >>>> town.
> >>>> Hence, all of the development. Without a treatment plant to tie into,
> >>>> you
> >>>> can not have density because you have to rely on septic systems. And
> >>>> with
> >>>> the soils in South Durham being what they are, some land would never
> >>>> perk
> >>>> to even be allowed to be buildable.
> >>>>
> >>>> So as we were building this WWTP facility, Cary was just getting
> >>>> started.
> >>>> Hard to believe it was just a sleepy little crossroads 30 years ago.
> >>>> If
> >>>> Durham had not built this plant and Cary or Chapel Hill would have
> >>>> expanded their services, we may have lost part of Durham to another
> >>>> city
> >>>> as it annexed areas into it that it served with water and sewer. Water
> >>>> isn't much of an issue as long as you have it somewhere because it
> >>>> flows
> >>>> under pressure. But waste water generally flows downhill by gravity.
> >>>>
> >>>> Meanwhile, the Little River Resevoir was being built to add water to
> >>>> the
> >>>> plan. And as it all has unfolded, South Durham has grown. I-40 came
> >>>> through. And for the most part, it now borders Chapel Hill and Cary.
> >>>>
> >>>> So what's next as our visionaries look toward the future? One can only
> >>>> think that with everything closing in on 3 of our sides that North
> >>>> Durham
> >>>> is the next big growth area. And there's plenty of room to grow. But
> >>>> they'll need WWTP and water as well as some major roads. But one great
> >>>> thing that seems untapped about North Durham is there is an abandoned
> >>>> rail
> >>>> spur that runs to Roxboro that would make the first great connection
> >>>> of
> >>>> that area to downtown by high-speed rail. And all the density you
> >>>> could
> >>>> want to build around it is there for the building because most of that
> >>>> land is undeveloped. It would change Durham if this plan was executed.
> >>>> The
> >>>> geographic density base would shift outside of the City to an area
> >>>> that
> >>>> could be planned. They'd say... "you can even see Durham from out here
> >>>> on
> >>>> a clear day..." as the ride the high-speed rail into Durham in 12
> >>>> minutes
> >>>> from Roxboro.
> >>>>
> >>>> Someone's already planning our future just like it was planned when I
> >>>> arrived he 30+ years ago to build infrastructure. Don't just sit back
> >>>> and
> >>>> fuss about somethings that are already pretty much predetermined. Get
> >>>> involved and write the future because that is what will change Durham.
> >>>>
> >>>> Randy Pickle
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Durham INC Mailing List
> >>>> list at durham-inc.org
> >>>> http://www.durham-inc.org/list.html
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Durham INC Mailing List
> >>> list at durham-inc.org
> >>> http://www.durham-inc.org/list.html
> >>>
> >>
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> >>
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> >
> 
> 
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